smknjoe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) Thanks for the info. I'm pretty sure the Waterford and Mikasa crystal dinner ware (wine glasses, tumblers, decanters, etc.) we have is leaded, but not positive. I know for a fact the decanters and a pitcher are as they are/were labeled with the lead content when new as a sign of quality. These were all purchased within the last 10 years or so. Some may be a little older. I personally don't use them very often, but we have in the past. Edited January 11, 2013 by smknjoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikH Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 It's my understanding that lead crystal stemware is fine, because the liquid doesn't stay in the glass long enough for leeching to occur. Crystal decanters need to be used for decanting and not storage; unused liquor needs to be put back in the original container or another non-lead glass container. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smknjoe Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Yeah, that's pretty much what I've heard to do as well. When I was a kid my Mom used to store scotch in leaded crystal decanters for long periods of time since she didn't drink (Dad drank bourbon.) When guests came over I guess they got a little dose. Probably not much worse than some of the tap water back then. Now that I think about it, my friends and I may have snuck a little sip a few times Thankfully, lead exposure from various sources is not as common as it used to be, but it's not something to completely ignore as some do. On the other hand ignorance really is bliss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebo Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 What is considered a safe period of time for whisk(e)y to be kept in a lead crystal decanter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikH Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I'm not trying to downplay the hazards of lead poisoning,(there is no know safe exposure level for lead) but lead is everywhere, and we are almost constantly being exposed to it. A great deal of the water pipes in the streets of Chicago are still lead, for example, and the U.S. only banned lead solder in tin cans in 1995. Many canned goods sold in foreign countries still contain lead solder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejmharris Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I'm not trying to downplay the hazards of lead poisoning,(there is no know safe exposure level for lead) but lead is everywhere, and we are almost constantly being exposed to it. A great deal of the water pipes in the streets of Chicago are still lead, for example, and the U.S. only banned lead solder in tin cans in 1995. Many canned goods sold in foreign countries still contain lead solder.Not an expert here at all, but I would assume lead water pipes in Chicago have water constantly flowing and does not give it much chance to leach into the water supply. I would also assume that there is a lot of testing to assure the levels are safe. Whiskey that has remained stagnant in a lead based ceramic decanter has sat for 30 years. Enough members on here have done testings to identify high levels in the decanters for me to stay away from them. To each his own on taking the chance but I am staying away from them. I have had opportunities to buy many many full decanters in the area and have passed. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jburlowski Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1694534/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebo Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1694534/Thanks for posting that. I guess I won't be keeping whisk(e)y in a lead crystal decanter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Reserve Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I'm surprised how fast lead is leached into solution from the decanters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I was a little surprised by how much lead there was in each of the media before they went into the decanters. Although I suppose I shouldn't be given how pervasive lead is in the environment. Also surprised at how acidic port and to a lesser extant the "synthetic" alcoholic beverage is although with a fair quantity of citric acid in it I suppose I shouldn't be. Curious too that they used different decanters for the port than they used for the other two media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wripvanwrinkle Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 14.6 mg / L bourbon * 50 mL bourbon / dram * 1 dram / 60 dL blood = 12.2 ug/dLUh-oh. The EPA says that 10.0 ug/dL is harmful, while a single dram has raised me to 12.2 ug/dL. Want a second dram? Fortunately, not all is lost. Sutton points out above that only 10-15% of dietary lead is absorbed in a non-pregnant adult. [7] (If you are drinking lead contaminated whiskey while pregnant, then shame on you.) Taking the 15% absorption rate into account, then each dram adds another 1.83 ug/dL to my blood supply. ...For a while now, I've been looking for a health effect chart that is measured in ug/dL. I finally found one produced by the ATSDR; California Health Department in 1993:[TABLE=width: 400][TR=bgcolor: #EEEEEE][TD=colspan: 2]Adult Reactions to Lead (micrograms per deci-liter)[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Blood Lead Level[/TD][TD]Possible Health Effects[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]15 ug/dL[/TD][TD]Increase in blood pressure; harmful effects on fetus; joint and muscle aches[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]25 ug/dL[/TD][TD]Reproductive problems[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]40 ug/dL[/TD][TD]Kidney damage; damage to blood formation[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]60 ug/dL[/TD][TD]Anemia; nerve damage; constipation; stomach pains; irritability and fatigue; memory and concentration problems; clumsiness; drowsiness and sleep problems[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]80 ug/dL & above[/TD][TD]Blue line on gums; uncontrollable shaking of hands; wrist and foot drop; hallucinations; brain damage; coma; death[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]Per my original estimate of 1.83 ug/dL per drink (and assuming 1 drink per day), the first set of symptoms (high blood pressure/joint an muscle pain) would appear in about 5 days. This is interesting as when I was drinking this sample every day, I was starting to feel a tightness in my chest. Reproductive problems would kick in after about 2 weeks. Don't stress it though, my wife and I are done having kids.After about a month I get a little stupider, have trouble sleeping, and am likely acting like a real pain in the ass.Remember (from earlier) that about half of consumed lead is purged from the body every 30 days. I'm going to cheat and assume that this cleansing happens all at once.In another month (after 60 total days) I'm acting like a crack head. I might slip into coma. Even worse, I might just keel over dead. I think that now is the time to put that bottle aside. It is possible that my tested bottle had an abnormally high lead content. I've been enjoying an occasional pour from a Old Fitz 7 year decanter from the late 60's. I think that I'll send a sample of it in next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelturtle1 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I'm surprised how fast lead is leached into solution from the decanters.The ASTM method for determining leachable lead from a food contact vessel calls for a 24 hr 4% acetic acid leach(vinegar), so I would assume a vast majority of lead that is going to leach from a vessel occurs rapidly. I have never done any studies on long term leaching but I might have to give it a try especially given my growing collection of decanters.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 For a while now, I've been looking for a health effect chart that is measured in ug/dL. I finally found one produced by the ATSDR; California Health Department in 1993:[TABLE=width: 400][TR=bgcolor: #EEEEEE][TD=colspan: 2]Adult Reactions to Lead (micrograms per deci-liter)[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Blood Lead Level[/TD][TD]Possible Health Effects[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]15 ug/dL[/TD][TD]Increase in blood pressure; harmful effects on fetus; joint and muscle aches[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]25 ug/dL[/TD][TD]Reproductive problems[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]40 ug/dL[/TD][TD]Kidney damage; damage to blood formation[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]60 ug/dL[/TD][TD]Anemia; nerve damage; constipation; stomach pains; irritability and fatigue; memory and concentration problems; clumsiness; drowsiness and sleep problems[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]80 ug/dL & above[/TD][TD]Blue line on gums; uncontrollable shaking of hands; wrist and foot drop; hallucinations; brain damage; coma; death[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]Per my original estimate of 1.83 ug/dL per drink (and assuming 1 drink per day), the first set of symptoms (high blood pressure/joint an muscle pain) would appear in about 5 days. This is interesting as when I was drinking this sample every day, I was starting to feel a tightness in my chest. Reproductive problems would kick in after about 2 weeks. Don't stress it though, my wife and I are done having kids.After about a month I get a little stupider, have trouble sleeping, and am likely acting like a real pain in the ass.Remember (from earlier) that about half of consumed lead is purged from the body every 30 days. I'm going to cheat and assume that this cleansing happens all at once.In another month (after 60 total days) I'm acting like a crack head. I might slip into coma. Even worse, I might just keel over dead. I think that now is the time to put that bottle aside. It is possible that my tested bottle had an abnormally high lead content. I've been enjoying an occasional pour from a Old Fitz 7 year decanter from the late 60's. I think that I'll send a sample of it in next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wripvanwrinkle Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Lead is certainly a serious concern although it might be difficult to draw a direct correlation on the amount of lead in your system associated with drinking a lead contaminated liquid without drawing serial serum lead levels. Bioavailability of the lead may result in less being absorbed than is being consumed. And lead clearance is a continuous process of course. But I probably wouldn't drink the bourbon you had evaluated either. At least not on a regular basis!I agree that there is always room for improvement, but please note that my calculation assumes a 15% absorption rate. Apparently 10-15% is common for lead digested into the blood stream. Also, I account for the 50% cleans although not admittedly daily. Having said that, the 2 month value works out to be almost the same.Again, although the concentration of my sample may be abnormally high...I think my calculations are sufficiently close to be a little disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I agree that there is always room for improvement, but please note that my calculation assumes a 15% absorption rate. Apparently 10-15% is common for lead digested into the blood stream. Also, I account for the 50% cleans although not admittedly daily. Having said that, the 2 month value works out to be almost the same.Again, although the concentration of my sample may be abnormally high...I think my calculations are sufficiently close to be a little disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryT Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 Wow . . . I am SO bummed! I stumbled upon (and bought) a small 50 mL Wild Turkey decanter at a flea market today, in the box, tax stamped, with the cork broke off (but when I shook it, definitely liquid inside!) Found out it is from 1981 based on the series (it was still in the original box). 101 proof, 8 yrs old from 1981 . . . and I'm not supposed to drink it :hot: It was only $8, so not a big waste of money I guess. I may come back to this thread to try to read and understand the volume/timing pieces. Wondering if I drink just HALF of it, 25 mL, and a lot of water . . . might be OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryT Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 Well - didn't matter. When I poured it out, the fill was less than an ounce so my guess is that somewhere between 40-50% had evaporated. Smelled nice, but with no expectation of greatness and a potential for lead poisoning - dumped it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyfish Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 My wife's uncle was a wine and spirits distributor who always had those ceramic bourbon releases on his bar. Very genorous with his product and the New Year was always special at his house. Dead ten years ago today. RIP Cletus. We still miss you. I don't think your passing had anything to do with lead in the glaze. Even so, we miss you--and the booze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidfive Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 I found four porcelean WT 101 8 year decanters from after 1980. NOT the ceramic ones. I have emptied the 1981, 1982, and 1985 into empty bottles and every single one yielded 740-745ml after pouring through a metal tea type filter. 2 of the corks were broken off of the head pieces, but the cork still had a good seal to the decanter. The other one had an intact tax strip, but when I took it off the cork broke from the head piece like the other two. Once i pushed through the cork with a cork screw it fell apart, but no evaporation. Had a little taste test of the 81 and 85 and had no cork/air taste whatsoever. It tasted like WT 101, but more mature. Very smooth, creamy mouth warming, less rye then I was expecting and more vanilla. Very tasty pours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryT Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 The 50 mL was also porcelain according to the box. When I pushed the cork in and poured (similar tea filter!) I got roughly 3/4 or 4/5 of an ounce. As a 50 mL, I was hoping to see 45 mL (10% loss), but even a level ounce would have meant roughly a 40% loss. I tried some WT 101 12 yr a couple weeks ago and thought it was amazing stuff. I never would have thought to look at flea markets (and really more of an antique store), but will definitely keep my eyes open! Sounds like you had great results with great whiskey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidfive Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 according to the OP, the porceleans should be fine, he heard it from the wt tour that the lead was used through the ceramic decanter era. I have seen a few other ones as well at second hand stores/antique shops/ etc. like you mentiong, but those all had nothing in it. I found mine at a local liquor store randomly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smknjoe Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I just recently found a porcelain S-W WSR decanter from 1986. Where did you see that porcelain would not have a lead glaze? From what I've read there is little practical difference between ceramic and porcelain stoneware and they both use glazes to seal them. The glaze is what contains the lead. I think I'll just leave this puppy sealed even though it feels and sounds full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckenzie Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 This thread and several things I have seen and learned while dealing with the new still we have in now. How much lead was in whiskey produced way back before people knew lead was a problem. I know they used lead solder, Tail Boxes had lead in them I know, I doubt lead pipe was used, but it is possible. I know my yeast jug I use to this day has a lead seal on the valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutton Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 I just recently found a porcelain S-W WSR decanter from 1986. Where did you see that porcelain would not have a lead glaze? From what I've read there is little practical difference between ceramic and porcelain stoneware and they both use glazes to seal them. The glaze is what contains the lead. I think I'll just leave this puppy sealed even though it feels and sounds full.Looking a bit online, porcelain is fired at a higher temp and does not need glazing to make it non-porous. However, that doesn't mean they didn't use a glaze for decorative purposes. If that glaze however was only used on the outside (which you'd assume they'd do since glazing internally would only be needed for making it non-porous which would be unnecessary for porcelain), it might be OK even if it included lead. The only way to know for sure (and peace of mind) would be to get a test kit and test the whiskey inside.Lead crystal/glassware is a different matter - lead oxide makes glass easier to work with and also increases its refractive index (making it "sparkle" more - which is why they are usually so ornately decorated - has the effect you'd look for in a properly cut diamond ring). Other information posted here indicates that undesirable levels of lead will leach into a sufficiently acidic solution in as little as 24 hours. Wine's acidity and pH is particularly effective at leaching the lead from lead crystal - so your decanters should be lead-free, but for serving you could probably safely use fancy, expensive decanter/glassware as long as it didn't sit in there more than a couple hours during a typical dinner, and if used occasionally. For a whiskey, I don't know what typical pH/acidity would be, however, in there you would be storing it for a longer period, and that is likely to lead to undesirable levels of lead accumulating over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smknjoe Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Thanks for the info Mark. That's somewhat encouraging I have a sample of S-W WSR (from a glass bottle) that I'm getting ready to taste. If I decide that I must have more I'll send a sample to be tested. It certainly is a shame that it's just been sitting here not being consumed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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