20 yr aged bourbons???

[Billy Bourbon]

This is my first thread fellows. Would an Old Grand Dad, Very Old Barton, Evan Williams or Old Forester be up on par with a Pappy van Winkle 20 year, if and if, they were allowed to mellow in the barrel for 20 years? If so, why do these other labels not kick it up to twenty year? What is happening here? If not, why?

[Clavius]

I can't speak as to whether or not those brands would be on par with Pappy if aged for that same amount of time. Others here would know better. However, I doubt any of them would be as successful commercially as Pappy has become. Pappy Van Winkle, quality of the bourbon aside, is a marketing triumph.

[JayMonster]

We sometime have an inflated sense of our opinion on the bourbon market as a whole. The question is, if they did in fact invest the time, money and warehouse space to age something like OGD, would people that drink it be willing to pay up for it? I mean (from what I have been told here), Basil Hayden is aged OGD, and it isn't exactly setting the world on fire, so if you were to age it another 12 years, would ANYBODY be willing to pay the price that makes it worth it for the distiller?

Conversely, would the name and image of the brand prevent people from paying up because the public perception of a brand? (the same reason aged OGD is called Basil Hayden?)

we don't know the answers to tjese questions... But I bet the distillers do.

[ethangsmith]

I could see OGD being very good at 20 years. You can draw a comparison on the Wild Turkey line. Starting with the 4yo 80pf and moving eventually up to the American Spirit, you can see the progression a high rye content bourbon will make. If OGD were to follow the same path, it think at 20 years, it would be a phenomenal bourbon- at 100 proof.

[fricky]

Not everyone likes 20 year old Pappy Van Winkle. Those that do not like it, dislike heavily wooded bourbons. Most distillers believe that bourbon peaks in 6 to 8 years. Why risk losing so much volume in 20 years and result in an expensive bourbon that may not be popular? Also, if you are currently selling all of the bourbon you produce, why take up space for another 12 to 14 years with something that may be undrinkable or at best, appeal to a smaller group?

[Old Lamplighter]

Would an Old Grand Dad, Very Old Barton, Evan Williams or Old Forester be up on par with a Pappy van Winkle 20 year, if and if, they were allowed to mellow in the barrel for 20 years? If so, why do these other labels not kick it up to twenty year? What is happening here? If not, why?

[clingman71]

We sometime have an inflated sense of our opinion on the bourbon market as a whole. The question is, if they did in fact invest the time, money and warehouse space to age something like OGD, would people that drink it be willing to pay up for it? I mean (from what I have been told here), Basil Hayden is aged OGD, and it isn't exactly setting the world on fire, so if you were to age it another 12 years, would ANYBODY be willing to pay the price that makes it worth it for the distiller?

Conversely, would the name and image of the brand prevent people from paying up because the public perception of a brand? (the same reason aged OGD is called Basil Hayden?)

we don't know the answers to tjese questions... But I bet the distillers do.

[woodisgood]

One cannot discount the importance of:

—mash bill, the quality of the individual ingredients, and how they've been prepared

—type & quality of the barrels used for aging

—the warehouse its aged in, including placement in the warehouse

—the distiller and his skills, and ability to have patience + concern for quality over twenty years

Skimp on one of these and the profile is affected. I have respect for any bourbon whose history extends back decades, whether its $20 or $250, so I cast no aspersions on any of the brands you listed. I'm merely suggesting it isn't easy matching the profile of a classic bourbon simply by more aging.

[JayMonster]

Basil Hayden might set the world on fire at 100 proof.

Even if it costs, say 20% more?

American Bourbon drinkers are by and large... Frugal.

[smokinjoe]

Frankly, if someone were to offer me my choice OF Signature, OGD 114, VOBBIB, EWBIB, and Pappy 20, I'd probably pick each one 20% of the time. Even if at the same price point. I would just say, don't read too much into increased aging. Like WIG posted earlier, it's just one part of the total picture. And can in fact, degrade a whiskey, rather than help it.

[cowdery]

Any bourbon has the potential to taste great at 20 years and, similarly, any bourbon has the potential to taste awful at that age. There are things you can do, as the producer, to improve the odds, mostly by aging selected barrels in a low, interior part of the warehouse where they will tend to age slowly. But even doing that, it's hit or miss. Very old bourbon, even the best examples, isn't for everyone, and some of the very old product on the market isn't very good.

[sailor22]

As has been stated here many times, the cost of maintaining & aging those barrels is higher....and, who knows how much is going to be left after the angel's share?

I think the industry typically expects about 3.5 to 4% of a barrel's volume given to the angels every year, on average. Some groups picking barrels have noticed that "light" barrels or those that have a lot more angel share than typical seem to have more intense flavors.

Sugars don't leave the wood and migrate into the juice at a uniform rate from barrel to barrel. When the sugars are depleted the biggest thing the barrel gives the Bourbon is added wood harshness. After the sugars are depleted there is about a six month window before the harshness begins to appear. That's the ideal time to dump it. If it is stored in the bottom of a cool warehouse it might be best at something near 20 years, or maybe not, the other variables previously mentioned would come into play.

[bad_scientist]

Basil Hayden might set the world on fire at 100 proof.

I'd buy it without hesitation at $40 or less.

[JayMonster]

I'd buy it without hesitation at $40 or less.

I guess that needs to be adjusted by locarion. The 80 proof runs just over $40 here in NJ.

[bad_scientist]

I guess that needs to be adjusted by locarion. The 80 proof runs just over $40 here in NJ.

Now that's one overpriced bourbon...

[barturtle]

I mean (from what I have been told here), Basil Hayden is aged OGD, and it isn't exactly setting the world on fire,

I would bet good money that they sell vastly more Basil Hayden every year than Van Winkle sells 20yo (or possibly more than the entire VW line)

[bad_scientist]

I would bet good money that they sell vastly more Basil Hayden every year than Van Winkle sells 20yo (or possibly more than the entire VW line)

[Young Blacksmith]

Interesting question, and here's one idea.

Heaven Hill. They do Evan Williams and Elijah Craig. Ages vary between 4 years and 18 years. Same mash, same distillate, the only difference is warehouse location and age.

Now, how does EC18 compare to Pappy 20? I don't know, as I have not been able to try a Pappy. But I can walk into a few stores around this relatively cheap bourbon budget area and get an EC18.

[JayMonster]

I would bet good money that they sell vastly more Basil Hayden every year than Van Winkle sells 20yo (or possibly more than the entire VW line)

Exactly my point... Now age that BH another 12 years and raise the price accordingly. If sales then drop to Pappy levels, what benefit is that to the distillers?

The ultra-premium certainly has a niche market, but that is what it is... A niche.

[Josh]

Not everyone likes 20 year old Pappy Van Winkle. Those that do not like it, dislike heavily wooded bourbons. Most distillers believe that bourbon peaks in 6 to 8 years. Why risk losing so much volume in 20 years and result in an expensive bourbon that may not be popular? Also, if you are currently selling all of the bourbon you produce, why take up space for another 12 to 14 years with something that may be undrinkable or at best, appeal to a smaller group?