OneCubeOnly Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I noticed in Marvin's thread (Single Barrel Bourbon Blowout!) the consensus was that bottle-to-bottle differences in taste were PREFERRED over consistency. Do most of you value the subtle differences in barrels?I'm torn. In one respect, I like the individuality, which is pretty much the whole point of the single-barrel concept, but at the same time if I've discovered a true gem I'd like to know that the next time I invest in a bottle it'll be equally as good.What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 It's like not wanting to eat at the McDonalds a few miles from here, but put me a few hundred miles from home and I know if I eat at the Golden Arches I know what to expect. As far as the Single Barrels go, the key word is subtile. Lose the lot numbers and most of us here would be hard pressed to notice the differences. Don't believe me, Do some blind tasting. I like Blanton's and I like Wathens, if single barrels ceased to exist I'd live. Just don't take small batch too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratcheer Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I'm going to be wishy-washy on this one. I do love the individuality of single-barrel bottlings, but I also appreciate the wonderful consistency of things such as WT 101. Each has its merits.Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgiammarco Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I always thought that it was the job of the distilleries to package the bourbon that fits a certain 'profile' as a certain brand of single barrel bourbon... While each barrel will have it's own subtle differences, the overall flavor shouldn't be too different... I like to think that once you decide you like a brand of SB bourbon you shouldn't have to worry about not liking another bottle from a different barrel, but only be presented with some 'variations on the same theme' that will take time (or a side by side tasting) to discern... Of course i find it hard to find any bourbon that isn't a bottom shelf item that i really don't like -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Well put, Chris. The thing about Single barrel is I thought they went on a hunt and found the good ones, period. In some cases that isn't it at all. Blantons is deemed to be Blanton's when it comes off the still, and goes to Warehouse H or whatever it is. Not all make it. Some could be culled. We should ask Ken how often that happens. A lot of the times I look at a warehouse, and that's a lot on any given day especially if I run to Bardstown twice . I think of the perfect barrels that must be on some floor and in every rack house. I would like once( Omar watch this) to be taken in the rackhouse and led to that elusive perfect barrel and do a tasting right there. All we need is a DeWalt cordless drill, a hose, spring water and glassware. Of course a distillery with a sense of humor. I'd like to try to pick the barrel. I'm dreaming now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 Both have their place. In something like a single barrel or a special edition, you expect bottle-to-bottle or edition-to-edition variations and that's part of the fun. On the other hand, if I buy a bottle of Wild Turkey 101 I expect it to taste the way I expect it to taste and would be unhappy if it didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneCubeOnly Posted May 26, 2003 Author Share Posted May 26, 2003 Just out of curiosity--if you DID get to pick out that magic barrel, where would you make your educated guess? Would it be one of the middle-of-the-warehouse barrels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 I have a few warehousemen I'd talk to about it. Problem is some of these guys are teetotalers. Yeah I'd go for that middle row. I'd like to pull a sample from the bottom and top , mingle those and compare to a sample from the middle.......... Then go from there. I have a tendency to think there's little difference from any 2 tiers say 1 to 3 or 3 to 5 but as you got farther away it would add up 1 to 5 you may notice something. Maybe this is another thing that isn't as important as we think. It may well be that being on top of a hill as opposed to being sheltered comes into play. That doesn't matter say at HH or Barton when most of the warehouse are sitting in a field. I guess money is the engine driving all of this , to rotate barrels 30% of a warehouse remains empty. Plus the labor to move it. Most have stopped doing it, Of course one could see that the bottom line would benifit, if everything else stayed the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boone Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Bobby, Ya know what?...Heaven Hill does that...Takes folks into a warehouse and lets them taste straight from the barrel... I could be mistaken but I believe that "Our" Chuck Cowdery has had the experience of tasting right from the barrel (with Max and some of the Chief's)...Chuck? Did ya? I know that he (Max) has taken a group into a warehouse for a tasting...Reason bein...I had just arrived for work, and parked my car...I looked up and there is a "Group" of folks crossing the road...A lot of em were carring camera's and notepads...but "everyone" was carring a brandy sniffer...Max, was making a B-line right towards me...Sooooooooo...he walks (with the enitre group) over to my car and shakes my hand...We do small talk...Scared the crap outta me...I can't remember what he said, at all..I had no idea that they did that...and he would show them around personally...I was impressed ... Ya never know...until ya ask...and if ya don't ask won't nobody know Ohhhhhhhhh Yeahhhhhhhhhhh Bettye Jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneCubeOnly Posted May 26, 2003 Author Share Posted May 26, 2003 I've always wondered--are there places in the warehouses where the barrels are CONSISTENTLY bad or good? I'd think they might even consider placing some empties in the racks if, say for example, the bottom tier is always poor quality. I'd imagine it varies too much to predict.Does a distillery still make a profit on the barrels it sells to go into blends (or otherwise 'lesser' spirits), or are they just minimizing their losses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgiammarco Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I wonder if it matters if you 'rotate' barrels or not when you will dump a whole bunch of them into a 10,000 gallon vat before bottling anyway... What i'm saying is, if i have barrels that are rotated, so each has some time at each place in the warehouse and i mix them all together before bottling, or if i don't rotate and then mix them all together before bottling, would there be a difference? At first i would think no, thinking of it as a sort of math question... but i failed calculus (many times), so that is probably wrong... I could imagine that there could be that 'hot spot' in the watehouse that does something special to the barrels there... Assuming that the bourbon gains less and less flavor from the wood on each heating cycle (is this a valid assumption?) i would think that passing every barrel through that 'special' spot would get every barrel a 'decent' amount of that flavor... if the same few barrels just sat there they would get a bit more of that flavor, but many more would have none of it... man, this stuff can get hard... In the name of research, i propose that we go in and check it out firsthand this september Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornsqueezins Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 My guess would be that rotating the barrels (thus achieving a more uniform character throughout a given warehouse) would minimize the effort that goes into mixing the barrels before bottling. When rotation is not done you have a greater variety of character in the bourbon in a given warehouse and it looks like the mixing would take on more complexity. Since you'd be trying to balance the top floor barrels with the bottom floor barrels to achieve some consistency with the center-cut, the mixing would be tricky. But, like you said, this is calculus. And we're not just dealing with one warehouse. And I'm not a master distiller or even a warehouse manager. So your guess is as good as mine -Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 At the event where they released the 1992 EWSB we tasted it from the barrel. Sublime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 That must have been a "neat" experience! Here's to hoping that may occur during this years Festival! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackkeno Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 To me, the consistency for single barrel bottlings is important with regard to style, but not the specifics. I expect Kentucky Spirit to taste "like" Kentucky Spirit rather than Blanton's, but I like the idea that the next bottle could be even better than the last! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boone Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Bobby, We will put this on your Christmas wish list... This gift package was donated to the 2001 Bourbon Ball "Silent Auction"....The estimated value is $5,000 ... DESCRIPTION: A Barrel of Buffalo Trace's Finest Be the proud owner of your very own barrel of Buffalo Trace Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey. Six friends will spend the day with Elmer T. Lee educating their palates in the art of bourbon tasting at the Frankfort Distillery. Enjoy a taste of up to 25,000 barrels until you find your favorite. Next learn from a behind the scenes tour where the Distillery staff will explain how your barrel of bourbon was created and aged. Lunch and an extensive tasting of "never released" bourbons are included. Later, return for a second day, complete with lunch, where the six of yu will enjoy watching the final preparation for the bottling of your barrel. You will watch as your bourbon is being bottled and the folks at Buffalo Trace will be on hand to autograph and personalize some of the bottles. This barrel should yeild 220-240 bottles. Ok Bobby, you can close your mouth now Bettye Jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrel_Proof Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Bettye Jo: Was this a donation to the 2001 Auction or to THIS year's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boone Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 It was the 2001 auction... Here is a link to it... 2001 Bourbon Ball I figured ( ) If I put his wish in early...It might sway them to do it again? Bettye Jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEG3 Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Wow , I wish that I could aford to bid on something that .....Or be one of the lucky good friend of the person who did win the taste, and the people alone would be a once in a life time event ,, Bill G, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brendaj Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Assuming that the bourbon gains less and less flavor from the wood on each heating cycle (is this a valid assumption?) I'm wondering if maybe the reverse is true...when I think about Bourbons with the distinct "oakieness" of the barrel (Weller 19 for example), they are generally older. Wouldn't the caramelized sugars deplete with time, therefore exposing more actual wood to the process? Or am I just ? Bj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 You're both right. What's in the whiskey stays there -- it doesn't go back into the wood, but the whiskey picks up more "goodies" with each cycle. Yes, how much more declines with each cycle as the wood is depleted, but the cumulative total still grows so older whiskey always will have more wood character.As you know, the Scots age their whiskey in used barrels often for very long periods (25-30 years and more), and something keeps happening, albeit very slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesbassdad Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Chuck, ...as the wood is depleted... Does the char layer deplete significantly ahead of the uncharred wood? If the answer were "yes", then as the years pass, the effect of aging would change not only quantitatively, but qualitatively, as well.Yours truly,Dave Morefield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I suppose it would be possible to answer that question with chemical analysis, but maybe not, as the layers aren't completely discrete. There are really three layers that are significant: (1) char (2) red layer (3) wood unaffected by the charring process. Some might argue that the red layer, just behind the char, where the wood sugars have been carmelized, is where the most desirable components reside. Are these the first depleted? I don't know, but I do know that when a bourbon has aged too long, the undesirable "woody" quality is really a "burnt wood" quality. I characterize it as tasting the way your clothes smell when you've been camping for a week. Scotch is a whole 'nother animal, of course, so it's hard to make a comparison, but having tasted the exact same whisky (Oban) in both a 14-year-old and 32-year-old, I can tell you that something is still going on even in wood that already had been used for ten or more years before the Oban even went into it. (SMS uses "second refill" bourbon barrels.) That something is something good, but hard to describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackkeno Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Just for clarification, although some SMS uses second (and even third) refill, I think many use first refill also. Bourbon being the first fill, SMS being the first re-fill (or second fill). Since bourbon is always a first fill (except if they were using Distiller's Masterpiece barrels ...)there has to be a first refill before the second refill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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