Another Age Statement Bites the Dust (And More Recent COLA Findings)

[c2walker]

Mat stated in a previous thread that the proof on the COLA is not an indication of what the proof of the release is. The proof can be changed without needing to create a new whole new label.

In other words, I would not hold my breath for a new barrel proof EC 12 general release, as really frickin awesome as that might be.

[Josh]

A barrel proof EC 12 was confirmed by Heaven Hill on their Facebook page. It will be sold at the distillery.

Heaven Hill: "there will be two versions [of EC 12], the barrel strength ones are a series of barrels from our barrel program, which will be exclusive to the Heritage Center."

[Jwilly019]

Mat stated in a previous thread that the proof on the COLA is not an indication of what the proof of the release is. The proof can be changed without needing to create a new whole new label.

In other words, I would not hold my breath for a new barrel proof EC 12 general release, as really frickin awesome as that might be.

Perhaps I'm remembering the thread wrong, but I thought what was said was that the proof could be greater than what was on the label, but not less. Hence why all KCSB label's state 120 proof despite some retailer bottles being in the 130s.

[JayMonster]

Perhaps I'm remembering the thread wrong, but I thought what was said was that the proof could be greater than what was on the label, but not less. Hence why all KCSB label's state 120 proof despite some retailer bottles being in the 130s.

Nope... You are remembering it wrong and adding a "rule" that wasn't there.

When the COLA is approved, the TTB allows you to use the same permit for your label...provided the only thing that changes is the alcoholic content. In other words, the 132 is an arbitrary number, and probably doesn't reflect what the final product will be.

[Jwilly019]

Nope... You are remembering it wrong and adding a "rule" that wasn't there.

[JayMonster]

Correct you (and Josh) are. My apologies for the misinformation.

[c2walker]

Evidently the barrel strength EC12 is selling for $75 at the HH gift shop. The first barrel sold out quickly around the Derby, but supposedly they're rolling out more.

If anyone gets it or tries it I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm not too keen on dropping that sort of coin on an unknown.

[StraightBoston]

Back to the top of this one -- I asked Bernie Lubbers at Spirits Confidential NH about Basil Hayden going NAS and learned a couple things:

• Bernie claimed that the point of the label change was to replace the paper wrapper with a stick-on label and didn't believe that the age statement was gone (he's wrong according to the COLA application.)
  
• Yes, BH is watered-down Old Grand Dad -- Bernie was filling flasks with grains representing mashbills, and both Old Grand Dad and Basil Hayden were listed as "High Rye Bourbon"
  
• However, BH goes in at a lower entry proof than OGD BIB and OGD 86
  
• OGD 114 also goes in at lower entry proof!
  

[Rughi]

• However, BH goes in at a lower entry proof than OGD BIB and OGD 86
  
• OGD 114 also goes in at lower entry proof!
  

Wow, you got my attention!

I'm not quite sure - are you saying that Grand Dad Bond and 86 share one proof and Basil Hayden shares a lower proof than that with Grand Dad 114? Or, that Basil Hayden and 114 different from each other? I wouldn't guess 114 gets its own distillation, but rather probably has a few barrels pulled from the Hayden stocks.

For me, Grand Dad 114 is like Rittenhouse Bond was a decade ago, a sleepy treasure that is filled every once in a while for its few longstanding customers, and will someday either get discovered or deleted to free up juice for a heavily hyped new label.

Roger

[StraightBoston]

Wow, you got my attention!

I'm not quite sure - are you saying that Grand Dad Bond and 86 share one proof and Basil Hayden shares a lower proof than that with Grand Dad 114? Or, that Basil Hayden and 114 different from each other? I wouldn't guess 114 gets its own distillation, but rather probably has a few barrels pulled from the Hayden stocks.

I believe he was saying that BH and OGD 114 share a lower entry proof. (The whole discussion came about because I said that I'd love BH at about 20 more proof points or 20 fewer dollars, and Bernie asked if I knew about OGD 114.)

[StraightNoChaser]

Evidently the barrel strength EC12 is selling for $75 at the HH gift shop. The first barrel sold out quickly around the Derby, but supposedly they're rolling out more.

If anyone gets it or tries it I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm not too keen on dropping that sort of coin on an unknown.

[T Comp]

• However, BH goes in at a lower entry proof than OGD BIB and OGD 86
  
• OGD 114 also goes in at lower entry proof!

Wow, you got my attention!

I'm not quite sure - are you saying that Grand Dad Bond and 86 share one proof and Basil Hayden shares a lower proof than that with Grand Dad 114? Or, that Basil Hayden and 114 different from each other? I wouldn't guess 114 gets its own distillation, but rather probably has a few barrels pulled from the Hayden stocks.

For me, Grand Dad 114 is like Rittenhouse Bond was a decade ago, a sleepy treasure that is filled every once in a while for its few longstanding customers, and will someday either get discovered or deleted to free up juice for a heavily hyped new label.

Roger

Got my attention too. Maybe explains the difference from the BIB even when 114 is cut to 100 proof. I've found more fruit and chocolate in the 114 at 100 than the more pronounced presence of the rye in the BIB and prefer the 114 for that reason.

[p_elliott]

JB is going to replace that paper label with a stick on label? Have they lost their minds I bet 3/4 of the people that buy that bourbon buy it because of that fancy paper label.

[Restaurant man]

Back to the top of this one -- I asked Bernie Lubbers at Spirits Confidential NH about Basil Hayden going NAS and learned a couple things:

• Bernie claimed that the point of the label change was to replace the paper wrapper with a stick-on label and didn't believe that the age statement was gone (he's wrong according to the COLA application.)
  
• Yes, BH is watered-down Old Grand Dad -- Bernie was filling flasks with grains representing mashbills, and both Old Grand Dad and Basil Hayden were listed as "High Rye Bourbon"
  
• However, BH goes in at a lower entry proof than OGD BIB and OGD 86
  
• OGD 114 also goes in at lower entry proof!
  

Funny how proof can affect peoples taste. I've seen a lot of flaming of BH on this site and plenty of good feedback on OGD 114 (which i really like) and it turns out that they are basically identical other than age (BH OLDER) and possibly barrel placement.

[Brisko]

Back to the top of this one -- I asked Bernie Lubbers at Spirits Confidential NH about Basil Hayden going NAS and learned a couple things:

• Bernie claimed that the point of the label change was to replace the paper wrapper with a stick-on label and didn't believe that the age statement was gone (he's wrong according to the COLA application.)

• Yes, BH is watered-down Old Grand Dad -- Bernie was filling flasks with grains representing mashbills, and both Old Grand Dad and Basil Hayden were listed as "High Rye Bourbon"

• However, BH goes in at a lower entry proof than OGD BIB and OGD 86

• OGD 114 also goes in at lower entry proof!

[smokinjoe]

JB is going to replace that paper label with a stick on label? Have they lost their minds I bet 3/4 of the people that buy that bourbon buy it because of that fancy paper label.

Paul, going to a "stick-on" doesn't necessarily mean going away from paper. That has just to do with the method of adhesion/type of glue they will be using on the labels. I take "stick-on" to mean the labels will have a pressure sensitive adhesive (think, new stamps that peel off and stick), versus a label that needs to have the adhesive activated with water (think, old stamps that you lick). The label substrate might not change at all.

[SMOWK]

For me, Grand Dad 114 is like Rittenhouse Bond was a decade ago, a sleepy treasure that is filled every once in a while for its few longstanding customers, and will someday either get discovered or deleted to free up juice for a heavily hyped new label.

Please do not speak of sucheth.

[StraightBoston]

Please do not speak of sucheth.

In the meantime, keep a couple bottles in your bunker (I'm greedy -- mine include ND distillate!)

[fussychicken]

Not to risk even more thread drift, but this brings up a another question. Is OGD 114 chill filtered? Maybe this is where it is getting some of its great taste? Maybe the ODG BIB is and the 114 isn't?

Of course we know you don't have to chill filter above 100ish proof, but that doesn't mean that Beam doesn't.

I did a little digging around and couldn't seem to find an answer in past threads. Does anyone know?

[kickert]

I am so glad to see bourbon lovers using the COLA database regularly. It was one of those industry secrets that was always open to the public. There is so much great information you can get from it. And having people dedicated enough to browse it, surely reveals some interesting information. Even if they aren't released, at least you know what the companies are thinking about.

[c2walker]

kickert inspired me to check COLA again and tonight we turn up...

Michter's 20 year old bourbon, 25 year old rye, and 25 year old bourbon.

[Trey Manthey]

That 20yo is definitely new, but I've been seeing those 25yo bottles on the shelf for a while now. I always see some crazy prices on them, like $350.

kickert inspired me to check COLA again and tonight we turn up...

Michter's 20 year old bourbon, 25 year old rye, and 25 year old bourbon.

[cowdery]

When Beam first started with the Small Batch Collection, something didn't become Knob Creek or Basel Hayden until the barrels were selected and dumped. Later, they began to 'barrel-to-brand,' which meant both variations in distillation proof and variations in barrel entry proof, though in most cases the lower distillation proof was the barrel entry proof. No water was added.

A lower distillation proof doesn't mean a separate run. It just means that at some point in the run -- the end, I assume -- they adjust the still for a lower distillation proof. Everything else is the same.

Lower distillation proof means more flavor is retained from the grain, yeast, etc. Lower barrel entry proof means more water, which typically means more extraction and a different evaporation dynamic, although when the differences are small as they are in Beam's case, the effects are pretty small too. Mainly it was a way to help products that were intended to age 8 or 9 years avoid becoming too woody. They also tend to age those products in the most suitable locations, generally not the highest and hottest spots.

As for chill-filtering, feel free to assume that any bottle whose label is silent on the subject is chill-filtered. If it's not chill-filtered, they'll tell you.

[cowdery]

As of 2008:

Bookers and Baker's come off at 125 proof, and go into the barrel that way.

Knob comes off at 130, and is reduced to 125.

Jim Beam comes off at 135, and is reduced to 125.

OGD/BH comes off at 127 and gets diluted slightly to 125 for entry.

Based on the above, this is only true for BH and 114. I'm going to guess that regular OGD comes off at 135 and is reduced to 125.

[Brisko]

Some newer COLA findings of interest:

From Heaven Hill, John E. Fitzgerald Larceny. "Very Special Small Batch," whatever that means. A wheater, I presume? 92 proof.

From Beam, Old Tub BiB. Dear lord, please let this see the light of day. I have an irrational weakness for BiBs, especially pre-pro labels.

Not bourbon, but the return of a much loved SMS: Macallan Cask Strength.