All your Van Winkle questions answered

[soad]

Of course, I earned my BS in Nipology at Ball State...

This thread has gone to hell.....but not in a way that anyone could have envisioned. :grin:

[fussychicken]

Wow, the ongoing saga continues. This only seems to contribute to the confusion, not help it as this information seems to be different than other previous "official" statements

What I don't understand is what is the motivation for the VW's and for BT to continue this? BT has the ability to be very clear. The BTAC info sheets are proof of this. Why don't the Van Winkle' whiskeys follow the same example? Just create an info sheet for each release. Problem solved.

All this drama does is cause unhappiness and ill will towards the brand.

Why would I want my brand to be associated with such things?

[bllygthrd]

This thread has gone to hell.....but not in a way that anyone could have envisioned. :grin:

Hey, it made me look up the definition of "nipology".

[White Dog]

Previous comment(s) would have been made from my laptop, which uses a different IP address. Also might have been made as "CorvallisCracker" rather than my name, if that makes a difference.

And pardon me if the comment came off as a little paranoid, but that sort of thing does happen. A while ago I was visiting a blog site where a commenter (not me) accused the blogger of posting a certain "tells all" article in an effort to generate more interest in his blog. Said blogger replied that if that had been his goal, he'd have posted pics of naked girls. I checked the hosting organization's TOS, saw that wouldn't be allowed, and posted a comment pointing that out. Comment was never published. :skep: Which does not help my already too cynical nature.

But I should have given you the benefit of the doubt. My apologies.

Ask Jim.

Yo. Josh has nothing against pictures of naked women, IMHO.

[cowdery]

Wow, the ongoing saga continues. This only seems to contribute to the confusion, not help it as this information seems to be different than other previous "official" statements

What I don't understand is what is the motivation for the VW's and for BT to continue this? BT has the ability to be very clear. The BTAC info sheets are proof of this. Why don't the Van Winkle' whiskeys follow the same example? Just create an info sheet for each release. Problem solved.

All this drama does is cause unhappiness and ill will towards the brand.

Why would I want my brand to be associated with such things?

At the risk of, well, who knows ...

What, exactly, is unclear to you? How could it be made more clear? What will remove this stone from your shoe?

[White Dog]

Wow, the ongoing saga continues. This only seems to contribute to the confusion, not help it as this information seems to be different than other previous "official" statements

What I don't understand is what is the motivation for the VW's and for BT to continue this? BT has the ability to be very clear. The BTAC info sheets are proof of this. Why don't the Van Winkle' whiskeys follow the same example? Just create an info sheet for each release. Problem solved.

All this drama does is cause unhappiness and ill will towards the brand.

Why would I want my brand to be associated with such things?

Exactly. They could easily do this, but they choose not to.:skep:

[White Dog]

At the risk of, well, who knows ...

What, exactly, is unclear to you? How could it be made more clear? What will remove this stone from your shoe?

[sob0728]

Well, how about the point we brought up about the 23yr Pappy? When exactly did BT start making Wheated Bourbon? And how about the fact that Harlan stated that that the Rye included BT juice, but this isn't addressed in your article?

And Fussychicken is right. They could provide spec sheets, but they don't. You yourself stated in a Hirsch Canadian Rye thread that you don't care for secondary bottlers when they don't provide the source, so why play favorites?

Someone in another thread stated a desire that use of the term "Straight Bourbon" should be legally changed to also include the distiller who made it. That's a great idea. Many on this board will say that only the quality of the juice matters. I enjoy finding out who made it. It's fun for me. And when I can't find out, well, that bums me out. Is it too much to ask, even if many of you don't care??

[White Dog]

So, if he said it to Chuck in an interview you don't believe him, but if he put it on a piece of paper that came with the bottle you would believe him? The source of the information would still be Julian Van Winkle and there would still be conflicting statements out there from Harlan Wheatley. Is it the piece of paper that matters?

[sob0728]

Please address the 23yr BT blend question. That's my original point. What do you think of that?? And yes, there are no statements from Sazerac employees that contradict the BTAC spec sheets, are there??

[Max Power]

That's my whole point, nothing will ever satisfy the Pappy birthers. Even if BT/VWs released a long-form fact sheet with it.

[callmeox]

Please address the 23yr BT blend question. That's my original point. What do you think of that?? And yes, there are no statements from Sazerac employees that contradict the BTAC spec sheets, are there??

The BTAC spec sheets are questionable as well. The Saz 18 is known to have been tanked with each bottling coming from the original mingling yet the evaporation loss information rises and falls each year.

[White Dog]

That's my whole point, nothing will ever satisfy the Pappy birthers. Even if BT/VWs released a long-form fact sheet with it.

[Special Reserve]

nothing will ever satisfy the Pappy birthers

[cigarnv]

We are talking about a brown liquid here right..... not life and death???:grin:

[HP12]

We are talking about a brown liquid here right..... not life and death???:grin:

Yep, a brown liquid libation that when news breaks about this beloved bourbon, it catches the interest of many openly proclaimed admirers of the VW line as well as those lurking in the closet.

With this thread not being even 24 hrs old, the replies / views ratio is revealing of the following that the VW mystique brings.

[Halifax]

I'd be curious to know how many of the Pappy bashers/birthers actually drink, bunker and buy Pappy. You can chose to be a Pappy consumer, or you can chose to pass on it. At the end of the day the choice to buy usually comes down to just a few variables.... Price, availability, and quality. All of that translates into value, and value is relative in general.

There's a reason the GEICO spends millions promoting their 97% customer satisfaction rating. They don't give a rats ass about the other 3% because they don't matter in the equation. Some people just aren't capable of being satisfied. And earning their business and maintaining them as a customer isn't worth the time or money required.

Bottom line... All of this bitching and moaning ain't gonna change nothin'. BT and the Van Winkle's know it. The brand will continue to grow. It will continue to be a quality product. The market has been created, and it will continue to be serviced. One day in the not to distant future most Pappy drinkers won't give a damn about the provenance of the bourbon. PVW will always have the 3% who can't be satisfied... So be it. There are plenty of other bourbons on the liquor store shelf...

[falstaff]

Thanks to John and Chuck. Interesting and informative.

http://www.whiskyadvocateblog.com/2012/06/11/what%e2%80%99s-in-that-bottle-of-van-winkle-anyway/

These statements seem to mesh with everything the Van Winkles and Harlan Wheatley have said. Even admitting that the 20/23 have BT juice in them. And the 15 will have some amount (likely small, I would guess) of S-W juice, which was unexpected information (at least to me).

What caught my eye was this:

This fall’s Old Rip Van Winkle 10 year old will be wheated bourbon made entirely at the Buffalo Trace Distillery in Frankfort

Would this be the same generation as the original release NAS OWA? Is this the first premium release wheated bourbon made from all BT distillate?

Thanks

[cowdery]

I thought I had addressed the Pappy 23 question, but I guess I only did so over on the Whisky Advocate Blog.

According to Julian, the Pappy 23 for the next several years is already in bottles and it’s all SW. The next time they bottle it, there will be BT in it. The next bottling of Pappy 20 will include BT. The Bernheim juice in the mix is just from that 1992-1999 window, so it’s 13- to 20-years-old now.

Personally, I’m a Lot B guy and it has continued to be great and, to my taste, virtually unchanged since the SW went out of the mix, so I think the future is bright for the line. The drinking of the last SW, when that day comes, will be notable but not tragic.

As for the Harlen stuff, I think that's already been beaten to death. All Julian was saying about 'not knowing' is that it's impossible to know what someone has, when it was bottled, and what exactly it contains. Except for the rye, it has for the last 10 years been SW, Bernheim and BT in various combinations.

For people who want clear and reliable information, I've done my best as a journalist to provide it. Julian and the BT folks have answered my every request without hesitation. There's nothing I can do about the people for whom that's no enough.

To me, the reasonable thing if you don't like the way somebody is doing business is to do business with somebody else and while it perhaps makes sense to express your dissatisfaction publically, at some point normal people just get on with it.

[macdeffe]

I buy and consume Pappy and van Winkle's

I also agree with Cowdery about the quality of the Lot B 12yo, its my 2nd favourite in the range, very close to the 20, which I rate slightly higher. I havent tasted the 23yo

If there's a curve up from the 12yo juice until it get 20yo I expect super whiskeys in the future. So van Winkle can't rest on their laurels if they want to meet my expectations :-)

Steffen

[clingman71]

I thought I had addressed the Pappy 23 question, but I guess I only did so over on the Whisky Advocate Blog.

According to Julian, the Pappy 23 for the next several years is already in bottles and it’s all SW. The next time they bottle it, there will be BT in it. The next bottling of Pappy 20 will include BT. The Bernheim juice in the mix is just from that 1992-1999 window, so it’s 13- to 20-years-old now.

Personally, I’m a Lot B guy and it has continued to be great and, to my taste, virtually unchanged since the SW went out of the mix, so I think the future is bright for the line. The drinking of the last SW, when that day comes, will be notable but not tragic.

As for the Harlen stuff, I think that's already been beaten to death. All Julian was saying about 'not knowing' is that it's impossible to know what someone has, when it was bottled, and what exactly it contains. Except for the rye, it has for the last 10 years been SW, Bernheim and BT in various combinations.

For people who want clear and reliable information, I've done my best as a journalist to provide it. Julian and the BT folks have answered my every request without hesitation. There's nothing I can do about the people for whom that's no enough.

To me, the reasonable thing if you don't like the way somebody is doing business is to do business with somebody else and while it perhaps makes sense to express your dissatisfaction publically, at some point normal people just get on with it.

Again, thank you. This is the info that we were all asking for during the crazy posts from a few months ago. I don't understand why the griping continues. I've never had any VW that I didn't like. The lot B and OR 10/107 that I've bought over the last year or so have all been excellent.

[timd]

This equation is fairly binary:

buy it, or don't

Is it "worth" the work to get, I think is the real question... and that's ultimately a very personal decision.

If it's not as good as "it used to be" - then find something else (there's a LOT of great Whiskey out there to try!).

I, personally, have given up on trying to get a straight answer - Julian/Preston have said as much: they do not know what's in each & every bottle.

They are blenders, not distillers. They paint with the barrels at their disposal, and when this steamroller got going, they - nor many other folks in the process - realized how big of a deal "SW juice" and it's provenance would be to the rabid hobbiests among us.

For me, this "conclusion" is kind of like what happened with the TV show "Lost:" there are far too many questions that there simply aren't answers to. Not because they are obfuscating or lying, but because... they simply don't know! Some of what we find out, we don't want to know, and other stuff will just be part of the mystery of the universe.

Bummer. But, I still like "Lost" and I still like (some) VW whiskey.

[yountvillewjs]

they - nor many other folks in the process - realized how big of a deal "SW juice" and it's provenance would be to the rabid hobbiests among us.

This.

On a larger scale, this is nothing more than a tempest in a teapot. I'd guess most buyers of PVW, don't know thing one about Stitzel-Weller -- just that it is 'the best' and something that they want to buy. Hell, even on this site there are but only a small minority truly inflamed about the opaqueness of the provenance.

I bought a 'new' PVW 15 last year. Opened it, didn't like it. Let it sit for a few weeks - came back to it, loved it. Loved it knowing full well it didn't have blood nor mythology of S-W. And given the opportunity, I'd buy it again. That said, I'm over trying to beg retailers and duck massive mark-ups to meet my next fix. If I find some, I'll buy it. If someone offers a reasonable trade, I'll make it. If I die an old man, with only the handful of PVW I have bunkered, I'll die happy, fulfilled.

[unclebunk]

... If I die an old man, with only the handful of PVW I have bunkered, I'll die happy, fulfilled.

I don't want to die with any whiskey bunkered. I plan to drink the stuff while I still can.:grin:

[White Dog]

I'm actually not as angry as people think. And I do appreciate the work that Chuck has done in regards to trying to clarify this.

I do buy and drink Van Winkle products. I like the 10yr 107 quite a bit, love the 20yr, and I'm addicted to the Rye. The 15yr is not as good as it once was, IMHO, but I love having it around for guests who are amazed that I always have some on hand.:grin: And FWIW, I do not care for the 23.

At the end of the day, I love aged wheaters, and it's a shame that Kentucky has not done enough to fill this niche, IMHO. Weller SR and OWA have lost their age statements, I can rarely find Weller 12, MM is blah, Old Fitz sucks, Vintage 17 will soon be gone, and sometimes Larue strikes me as a bit young. What's next? An NAS from HH? I just hope it's good.

Oh well, pass me some 4R.