Does yeast have an impact on flavor?

[Josh]

I am currently in a discussion with some Scotch drinkers (not that I don't drink Scotch myself) regarding the impact of yeast on the flavor of whiskey. They are convinced that it has none and that all the talk American distillers do about yeast is nothing more than marketing. You can all probably guess my opinion on the matter, but what say you? Does yeast have some impact, a great impact or none? Is it possible that yeast has an impact on American whiskeys but not Scotch ones?

[wadewood]

Yeast has an impact on flavor. With Bourbon it's easy to see because you can buy Four Roses SB offerings in 5 yeast strains and the difference is obvious. My local microwbrewery put a a series of beers that were variations on their standard recipes, changing only the yeast; again very obvious difference. I see no reason why it would be any different with any distilled spirit.

[HighInTheMtns]

Yeast has an impact on flavor. With Bourbon it's easy to see because you can buy Four Roses SB offerings in 5 yeast strains and the difference is obvious. My local microwbrewery put a a series of beers that were variations on their standard recipes, changing only the yeast; again very obvious difference. I see no reason why it would be any different with any distilled spirit.

This was going to be my answer too. Feed the Scotch drinkers some Four Roses, then they will have to change their tune, right?

[MyOldKyDram]

Yup. Need look no further than Four Roses. Well if you wanna look will further on the negative side maybe Jim Beam.

[Trey Manthey]

Everyone is saying, "Just look at Four Roses. They FIVE different yeasts!" Sounds cool, and goes with the "wholesome whiskey artisans" image they have cultivated. However...

How many of us have had an opportunity to taste more than the standard OBSV single barrel?

How many of us have tasted more than the standard single barrel side by side with another single barrel recipe?

Did those single barrels vary in any other way? Age? Mashbill? Proof?

Most of us will recognize that there can be significant variances in single barrels that have ALL of the same variables in place (yeast, mashbill, age, proof) except different physical barrels. So while I will accept that there is a possibility that yeast would create a significant difference in taste, I haven't tasted it personally. Furthermore, with all the other variables mentioned I'm even not sure I could taste a difference.

So, I'm with the Scotch guys. I think Four Roses just has a marketing gimmick in play. It distinguishes them in the marketplace. Well done.

[Josh]

Four Roses is exactly what I pointed to. I was told that they must be mashing at different temperatures for different yeasts and mashbills, making cuts at different points in the distillation(:skep:), or something else. Somebody even said that a guy at Diageo told him that yeast is all marketing, so he's inclined to believe that. I just wonder what makes the Scots so sure that it doesn't make a difference and that it couldn't possibly make a difference.

[MyOldKyDram]

Then they are marketing and barrel picking geniuses because there are indeed major differences flavor wise in all the yeasts. Maybe it's other factors in play, but I doubt it. Don't know what to tell ya.

[T Comp]

Everyone is saying, "Just look at Four Roses. They FIVE different yeasts!" Sounds cool, and goes with the "wholesome whiskey artisans" image they have cultivated. However...

How many of us have had an opportunity to taste more than the standard OBSV single barrel?

How many of us have tasted more than the standard single barrel side by side with another single barrel recipe?

Did those single barrels vary in any other way? Age? Mashbill? Proof?

Most of us will recognize that there can be significant variances in single barrels that have ALL of the same variables in place (yeast, mashbill, age, proof) except different physical barrels. So while I will accept that there is a possibility that yeast would create a significant difference in taste, I haven't tasted it personally. Furthermore, with all the other variables mentioned I'm even not sure I could taste a difference.

So, I'm with the Scotch guys. I think Four Roses just has a marketing gimmick in play. It distinguishes them in the marketplace. Well done.

A few of us here have picked barrels at the distillery and not me but others have succesfully identified blind the yeast types. Did you ever have an F yeast? You'd know it's no gimmick.

[Josh]

Everyone is saying, "Just look at Four Roses. They FIVE different yeasts!" Sounds cool, and goes with the "wholesome whiskey artisans" image they have cultivated. However...

How many of us have had an opportunity to taste more than the standard OBSV single barrel?

How many of us have tasted more than the standard single barrel side by side with another single barrel recipe?

Did those single barrels vary in any other way? Age? Mashbill? Proof?

Most of us will recognize that there can be significant variances in single barrels that have ALL of the same variables in place (yeast, mashbill, age, proof) except different physical barrels. So while I will accept that there is a possibility that yeast would create a significant difference in taste, I haven't tasted it personally. Furthermore, with all the other variables mentioned I'm even not sure I could taste a difference.

So, I'm with the Scotch guys. I think Four Roses just has a marketing gimmick in play. It distinguishes them in the marketplace. Well done.

Good! A contrary opinion! I was hoping for that. :grin:

I have had had the opportunity to taste all the different recipes in single barrel form.

I have tasted multiple recipes side by side, including stuff from barrels with the same yeast strain but different mashbill. I detected a common thread between the two. It's easiest to see this in the F yeast, since it's so different from the others.

Yes, they do vary in other ways.

The problem with the argument that Four Roses' 10 recipes are a gimmick is that those 10 recipes come from when 4R was producing bourbons for blending. By the time Four Roses was selling bourbon in America again, the 10 recipes were already well established as a part of their MO. So it at least wasn't a gimmick to start with.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Josh

[p_elliott]

The master distillers will tell you it's 25% mash bill 25% yeast and 50% barrel. And yes Trey I have had FRSB where the only variable was yeast and it does make a difference. You can order/get these from TPS judge for yourself.

[Wryguy]

IMHO, some great points have been made, but to say that 'yeast is all marketing' is pretty biased and shows that Diageo doesn't want you thinking about the fact that they have eliminated many different strains of yeast in their moves toward a more corporate and profitable monoculture Scotch industry. Ask yourself why is some sourdough bread better than others? Why do the best bakeries keep their sourdough-starter kicking for decades? The secret is in the yeast. Granted distilling spirits is a different beast than baking, but I'm hard pressed to believe that all yeast is the same. I applaud diversity in the marketplace and in my choices, and in general. As for being able to detect a difference in how my whisk(e)y tastes because of yeast variations, I can't say I'm there yet, but it gives me something to strive for (or fool myself with, depending on your perspective).

[Trey Manthey]

Sounds like the whole "do cables make a difference?" argument that goes back and forth on my audiophile forums. Those with the "golden palate" claim that the difference is night and day. As a skeptic, I am unwilling to accept this as a truth until I prove it for myself. So unless someone can offer me irrefutable scientific evidence, I would be unsatisfied until I can take part in a double blind test with two single barrel whiskeys that have the same age, mashbill, and proof.

At least with this argument, the worst that can happen is you have a few extra bottles of FR whiskey laying around.

[Trey Manthey]

You can order/get these from TPS judge for yourself.

Which recipes would you recommend I purchase to best highlight the differences between yeasts?

[Josh]

Sounds like the whole "do cables make a difference?" argument that goes back and forth on my audiophile forums. Those with the "golden palate" claim that the difference is night and day. As a skeptic, I am unwilling to accept this as a truth until I prove it for myself. So unless someone can offer me irrefutable scientific evidence, I would be unsatisfied until I can take part in a double blind test with two single barrel whiskeys that have the same age, mashbill, and proof.

At least with this argument, the worst that can happen is you have a few extra bottles of FR whiskey laying around.

Well, you never know what the bourbon sample fairy may send your way.

[portwood]

Most people would agree that the barrel itself has an impact on taste to the point that two barrels filled with the same spirit sitting side-by-side for the same amount of time can produce aged whisky that tastes different. Therefore, the impact of yeast should be tested on new make spirit with all other variables the same except for yeast.

[MyOldKyDram]

This is all a very clever way for Trey to score some free booze.

[higgins]

Ideally we would eliminate the whole debate about individual palates and taste tests between barrels. If the yeast really do matter, then the difference is in the chemicals they produce during fermentation that make it through the distillation process and into the final product. Certainly this is of interest to Four Roses, and something that they could test objectively at their labs. I'm assuming that they don't release that sort of proprietary information, though.

[DaveOfAtl]

In the name of science, I am also happy to accept samples to determine the impact, if any, of the 4R yeast strains. :grin:

[Trey Manthey]

Most people would agree that the barrel itself has an impact on taste to the point that two barrels filled with the same spirit sitting side-by-side for the same amount of time can produce aged whisky that tastes different. Therefore, the impact of yeast should be tested on new make spirit with all other variables the same except for yeast.

Excellent suggestion. Let's petition Jim Rutledge to put together a new make sampler pack for the SB trainspotters! Gift shop only, of course.

I certainly would welcome any visits from the bourbon sample fairy.

[Brisko]

Pretty sure Seagrams thought it made a difference, with their library of 300 yeasts...

Here's a thought: we know that yeast-making, from capture to propagation, was a highly prized art among early American distillers. Perhaps the emphasis on yeast here has as much to do with tradition as it does effect.

Another thought, is this yeast-making tradition more a central European thing? (The Beams were, I believe, German). Perhaps the ethnic heritage of the American distillers plays into this. I don't know enough about Scottish distilling to know whether they had such a tradition but it's clearly gone now, as they all buy bulk yeast.

Tom McKenzie ought to weigh in on this.

[squire]

Of course yeast has an impact on flavor, be it beer, bread or Bourbon. This is why Beam continues to use the old National Distiller's yeast to ferment Old Grand Dad mash rather than standard Beam yeast.

[p_elliott]

Which recipes would you recommend I purchase to best highlight the differences between yeasts?

OscarV has a post on here that has what all the yeast do to the bourbons. Pick 2 bourbons with the same grain mash bills and 2 yeast that are exact opposite of each other.

[rndenks]

I remember seeing this on Chuck's blog awhile back, and did some digging.

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2013/02/beam-descendants-hope-to-revive.html

Seems like a lot of trouble to go through if yeast does not have an effect on the taste. Although it is also a "strange" coincidence that it all is occurring the day before their big anniversary and release. Hopefully it is both yeast and marketing.

Personally, I am to green to know the true impact. However, if it didn't have an effect on the taste these distillers would be buying it from a company to save time and money. Remember that is all about $$$

[HighHorse]

Most people would agree that the barrel itself has an impact on taste to the point that two barrels filled with the same spirit sitting side-by-side for the same amount of time can produce aged whisky that tastes different. Therefore, the impact of yeast should be tested on new make spirit with all other variables the same except for yeast.

This was discussed by Jim Rutledge at length this past weekend. Going back to the time he began in R&D they went through many, many variations of yeast and distilled them in mini stills in the lab measuring everything scientifically. The taste & smell comparisons were made on fresh make and his contention has always been that the measure of good bourbon must be made on what goes in to the barrel. In '91-'92 when he moved from NY to KY he had only 6 months to bring the quality of FR up to his expectations. The stuff they were making was ranked near the lowest their 4-point scale went until he eventually came up with the combinations that ranked at the top of the scale. All of these tests, tastings, & nosing were on fresh make when the yeast show the greatest variable. The others being the water and the quality of the grains.

Interestingly, he told us of a visit by another barrel picking group .. likely noted earlier on this thread .. where they literally picked out the different yeast formula. Something he said neither he nor anyone else at the distillery had been able to do!

Edited March 14, 2013 by HighHorse
change "post" to "thread"

[higgins]

Here's an idea. Go back and tell them that all the talk Scottish distillers do about peat is nothing more than marketing. Someone at Diageo even said so.