Rye Conundrum

[Brisko]

And the Beam yeast was The Beam Yeast whose other sibling went to Heaven Hill.

Yes, it has been weighing on my mind lately how much we really owe to James B. Beam, a 70 year old man who rebuilt a distillery and cultured a yeast just as soon as prohibition was repealed.

[tmckenzie]

Dick told me that as long as Everett Beam was there, every time they started up, he would send a yeast jug to KY, one of his bothers would send it right back up with Beam yeast in it. Nobody thought about it, Dick sent the jug down after Everett retired, it never came back. They then switched to red star. Those Beams looked out for each other. No Beam, no yeast.

[squire]

We're told the yeast used by Jim Beam is the one developed by Jim Beam himself in the mid 1930s yet Craig Beam over at Heaven Hill claims their Beam yeast has been in his family for 200 years. The only thing that's clear is there have been a lot of Beams working at a lot of distillerys over the years.

[RWBadley]

Interesting thread squire, I agree about trying to get a handle on rye. It seems the more I taste the less I know what rye <should> taste like.

Young rye, aged, high, low rye, different yeasts etc.

Having tried most every rye I can get my hands on the one that confused me the most is an old PA rye from the 30's. Well kept in a basement- it had a distinctive creosote and earthy aroma. Time in glass evolved into a fairly smooth complex yet very unexpected flavor profile. Was this what rye should taste like? or just another version.... ?

I just posted about the redemption rye 6yo. Apparently a blog did not like this one much in giving it an 'F'. I thought it an OK rep of a 6yo simple 95% rye from LDI. Overpriced maybe.... at $60. Many other rye eclipse it for complexity and character. But the rye actually (from what I have come to expect from some rye profiles, especially younger aged) shines through quite nicely.

My own conclusion really, is that there is nothing wrong with all the different profiles of these various rye. If I want, I can always just use it for blending fodder :grin:

[Gillman]

It's a good question and the range of rye flavours is very broad, more so than for bourbon. I think all ryes do share something, but it is not always apparent or strongly apparent because e.g., aging affects rye differently than bourbon and of course ryes come in different ages. Yeast can cover over their attributes, as perhaps in the Beam case. Low proof can water down the rye characteristic, and many are 80 proof. Finally, a high corn content - and many are "legal ryes" - can also obfuscate the rye taste. But what is the rye taste? I think it is spicy/minty thing, you see it in Masterson's which is 100% rye and whose barrel character is not as strong as the typical Kentucky whiskey. You see it too in LOt 40 or the Anchor ryes for that matter. But the rye notes are "tamed" in the current range of ryes typically available, not a bad thing necessarily.

Gary

Edited February 1, 2014 by Gillman

[shoshani]

We're told the yeast used by Jim Beam is the one developed by Jim Beam himself in the mid 1930s yet Craig Beam over at Heaven Hill claims their Beam yeast has been in his family for 200 years. The only thing that's clear is there have been a lot of Beams working at a lot of distillerys over the years.

[callmeox]

I asked Jim Rutledge about making the classic Four Roses bourbon from the post prohibition era and he said that it wasn't possible due to unavoidable mutation in the yeast strain.

Unless Beam has a time machine, their yeast may be a descendant of the original strain but it isn't the same exact organism.

[sailor22]

Seagram's had more than 300 yeasts when they sold 4Roses. Given that fact its really surprising that all the LDI Rye seems to have been distilled with the same yeast. You would think that given all those yeasts to choose from that there would have been an opportunity to create some more complex and interesting product. OTOH if a flavoring spirit is your goal then simple may aid in vatting.

[RWBadley]

Seagram's had more than 300 yeasts when they sold 4Roses. Given that fact its really surprising that all the LDI Rye seems to have been distilled with the same yeast. You would think that given all those yeasts to choose from that there would have been an opportunity to create some more complex and interesting product. OTOH if a flavoring spirit is your goal then simple may aid in vatting.

Absolutely- predictable as a blending agent is key.

[sailor22]

Using mutation they developed more than 3K different yeasts and using a miniature still (actually larger than most of todays micros, but small by their standards) did a distillation run from each of them. They kept the best tasting ones - more than 300. Even so, only one yeast was used at all of Seagram's north american distilleries. So they were interested in trying different ones but opted for the simplicity of using just one.

[squire]

I expect higher alcohol production from the mash was a bigger factor in choosing the yeast .

[RWBadley]

I expect higher alcohol production from the mash was a bigger factor in choosing the yeast .

hmmm... maybe, but typical mash %abv would be what ? 8-9%? Will it matter if it goes from say- 7.8% to 8.6%? just curious.

Could it be associated with either temperature or ester production?

Why would a distiller change from a known yeast?

Edited February 3, 2014 by RWBadley

[squire]

hmmm... maybe, but typical mash %abv would be what ? 8-9%? Will it matter if it goes from say- 7.8% to 8.6%? just curious.

I'd say it matters for a high capacity distiller, Seagrams had the highest volume brands in the Country at the time. How much do Beam and HH do now, 1000+ barrels a day? If a higher percentage yeast (even by a few tenths of a point) means another 10 barrels a day that's quite a lot of money over the course of a year.

[RWBadley]

I'd say it matters for a high capacity distiller, Seagrams had the highest volume brands in the Country at the time. How much do Beam and HH do now, 1000+ barrels a day? If a higher percentage yeast (even by a few tenths of a point) means another 10 barrels a day that's quite a lot of money over the course of a year.

Yes, I see- as it is converting the existing sugars and dropping to a lower gravity thus basically giving 'free' extraction/ higher gain.... cool

[squire]

Yeah, at a wholesale of $3500 per barrel that's $35,000 a day, like harvesting a crop you didn't have to plant.

[kaiserhog]

We won't have true American Rye until it is produced as it was in Pennsylvania and Maryland. By the way I absolutely love Rittenhouse 100 BIB and I am rather fond of Old Overholt.

[RWBadley]

We won't have true American Rye until it is produced as it was in Pennsylvania and Maryland.

What was the variation of those from what we have now?

[kaiserhog]

What was the variation of those from what we have now?

I have heard that Rittenhouse is more in line with Eastern Pennsylvania or Philadelphia Rye which is more akin but not the same as Maryland style. As for Monongahela Rye, I am not sure if anyone has approximated it yet. Maybe Bulleit or Dickel Rye, anything distilled by LDI. Surely, when Beam bought Old Overholt there were some of the old Monongahela recipes included in the purchase price. Old Overholt tastes like Jim Beam, only with percentage of Rye and Corn in the mashbill reversed. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it. I suspect it is not true to the original Old Overholt.

I have read the mashbill for Monongahela Rye was 80% rye and 20% malted rye. Interesting stuff.

Edited February 4, 2014 by kaiserhog

[squire]

Paging Gary Gillman, Mr. Gillman?

kaiser I don't think we can ascribe any specific mash bill to the Monongahela style as it was a very broad area with diverse sources within it's boundaries. I believe the average rye content was 60-65% but Gary has done some research in that area and would know better. Of course the different distillers could use any combination on hand, even 100% rye if enough of it was malted to allow for starch/sugar conversion.

The 80/20 mash bill is well known in modern times for having been developed by a scientist working for Seagrams in their Lawrenceburg, Indiana facility in the early 1950s.

[Pikesville]

We won't have true American Rye until it is produced as it was in Pennsylvania and Maryland. By the way I absolutely love Rittenhouse 100 BIB and I am rather fond of Old Overholt.

The Leopold Bros. are doing a darn good take on Maryland style rye. Also have heard that Kevin Plank (founder of Under Armor) has hired a very renowned distiller and is cooking up a rye at Sagamore Farms in northern Maryland.

[shoshani]

I asked Jim Rutledge about making the classic Four Roses bourbon from the post prohibition era and he said that it wasn't possible due to unavoidable mutation in the yeast strain.

On the other end of the scale, and teetering precariously off the topic of rye: Four Roses has been made in the Old Prentice/Old Joe plant since, if I recall correctly, the late 1950s. (Post-Prohibition Four Roses was made at the old A. Ph. Stitzel plant on Story Ave in Lousiville, which Frankfort Distillers bought from Stitzel-Weller when it became surplus.)

Old Joe was built in 1910, but I found an ad in a 1904 issue of The Wine and Spirits Journal for Old Joe from before that facility was built, and it proudly proclaims "No jug yeast" without explaining why that would be beneficial. (I'm attaching it, but the clip from Google Books is small.)

[kaiserhog]

I have heard that Rittenhouse is more in line with Eastern Pennsylvania or Philadelphia Rye which is more akin but not the same as Maryland style. As for Monongahela Rye, I am not sure if anyone has approximated it yet. Maybe Bulleit or Dickel Rye, anything distilled by LDI. Surely, when Beam bought Old Overholt there were some of the old Monongahela recipes included in the purchase price. Old Overholt tastes like Jim Beam, only with percentage of Rye and Corn in the mashbill reversed. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it. I suspect it is not true to the original Old Overholt.

I have read the mashbill for Monongahela Rye was 80% rye and 20% malted rye. Interesting stuff.

Obviously, an overbroad statement by me. I was mistaken. Still, it seems difficult to resurrect old recipe. Wasn't it Seagrams that had that 80/20 mashbill?

[shoshani]

Obviously, an overbroad statement by me. I was mistaken. Still, it seems difficult to resurrect old recipe. Wasn't it Seagrams that had that 80/20 mashbill?

In its Indiana plant, Seagram's at one time had a mashbill of 95% rye and 5% malted rye. That 5% was changed to malted barley before Seagram shut down and the plant became LDI/MGPI. (How much things change: 20 years ago Jim Murray lamented that this particular rye was never made available as a straight. Today, it's well-nigh inescapable.)

[squire]

Among others yes, but the Seagrams version was a good one that got mutated by the accountants to 90/10 and finally 95/5 where it is today.

[RWBadley]

Obviously, an overbroad statement by me. I was mistaken. Still, it seems difficult to resurrect old recipe. Wasn't it Seagrams that had that 80/20 mashbill?

Overbroad statements can be a great starting point for discussion. :cool:

Historical whiskey has been an interest to me. I have tasted only three historical rye. One was an 18yo made before prohibition and sold as medicinal (Doughertys , pic in my avatar). It was very good and the closest of todays rye I thought was Vintage 23 from a few years back. The other was Mt Vernon, a PA rye distilled '37 bottled '42, bonded. It was quite unique and I can't think of anything currently made that is similar. I still have an unopened bottle of that, and one day will need to revisit it. The third was the first edition of 13yo VanWFR. While not technically of great vintage, it could currently be considered a modern classic.

Cheers

RW