Very Old Jefferson's Reserve

[TNbourbon]

A special day for all of us -- even those who don't appreciate it like they should. Thanks, Marvin (and my own late father, Marvyn Sousley, who was a WWII vet.).

[Paradox]

So here's an email I got from Trey today

<font color="blue"> Mark,

I most certainly will send you a picture of the product as soon as if is produced. As far as other information, it will be in the press release which is sent out prior to the launch. Until then I can not let the bourbon out of the bottle. happy holidays.

Trey

</font>

I just wanted to update those who may care about this upcoming bourbon release. He made it originally sound like he would tell me/us more info but it seems this is a big thing and top secret clearance is required jsut to get near it. Anyways, I really thought he would supply us with a bit more info......... Guess we'll just have to wait on this one.

[bobbyc]

What a shame , Mark. The scoop turns into a thimble full. I guess I can hope it is released near here to begin with. Although the price threshold may be over my head. We can only wait and see now.

<font color="green"> Good God Give Jan Hammer Some </font>

[bourbonmed]

Mark, Bobby:

Looks like we are going to be waiting for Very Old Jefferson's release for some time. Trey Zoeller says they've decided to hold it until fall, but gave no specific date. It'd be great if it's released during the festival.

Omar

[pepcycle]

By that time, they'll have to change the name again. VVOJ???

[LeNell]

I reordered some of the Jefferson's 15 year and got the younger one instead. I called to get it switched out, and the sales rep says that there is no more 15 year in NY...only some new stuff that was sent with no forewarning. She said the "new stuff" is a blend of older bourbons with no age on the bottle...something about 17-20 year olds. She said that since there's no age on the bottle, she's waiting for neck tags to explain the whiskey. This must be the whiskey we've been waiting to be released, right? I thought this stuff wasn't coming out until the fall. I haven't seen it, yet. She's supposed to bring me a case today so I'll report back when I see it.

[cowdery]

This is interesting because a couple of people "in the know" have talked to me about the fact that the stock of 15 to 18 year old whiskey that has been available on the bulk market this past few years is just about exhausted. That isn't to say there is no more whiskey left in that age range, but the producers are now keeping it to supply their own current and anticipated needs for their own brands. They aren't selling it to the independent bottlers. It is interesting that perhaps a decade ago there was a glut of the stuff--whiskey that had passed ten years in wood unintentionally, just because it hadn't been sold and was allowed to just keep aging. Non-distillers like David Sherman (Ezra and McLain & Kyne (Jefferson's Reserve, Sam Houston) were able to buy it pretty cheaply and create these super premium products. In the last ten years, these products have been successful enough that the glut has turned into a shortage and the independent bottlers now can't continue their brands at the barrel age they were founded on. Ezra B., as I have noted elsewhere, has stopped shipping 15-year-old product (although there is still a fair amount of it at retail) and is now shipping 12-year-old product.

This may be part of the Wathen problem too, even though he started out with his own stock of whiskey he made and owned, that was aging in his own warehouses, he hasn't been making any more and may be running short just as the bulk market has dried up. I believe what Julian said about bottling, but the other (where to get stock) may be Wathen's problem longer term.

Something else to think about. The Heaven Hill fire in 1996 destroyed 7.7 million gallons of whiskey. Wild Turkey lost a million gallons in its 2000 fire and Beam lost 800,000 in its 2003 fire. Just thinking about Heaven Hill, that fire was eight years ago. We know there there was a range of ages lost, so we're looking at whiskey that would be a minimum of 8 years old today and going up from there--10, 12, 15, 18 and so on. Likewise the Turkey stock, which would be 4, 6, 8, etc. today if it hadn't been lost. Fires are not common enough--especially one as large as the one at Heaven Hill--to be factored into production planning. I'm suggesting that Heaven Hill's fire especially may be a significant factor in the current shortage of extra-aged whiskey, along with what probably has been an unexpected growth in demand.

[Paradox]

Here's something that the "NY Crew" ran into yesterday that has not been mentioned yet.

It would seem Tonya was right, there is in fact a new Very Old Jefferson's Reserve being shipped. But it is a confusing thing right now... I will try and explain what we mean as well as include pics to better show examples of what is going on.

At LeNell's they had a bottle of Jefferson's Reserve 15yo (which says 15yo on the bottle) and then a very similar bottle which instead of saying 15yo on the front was replaced with Very Old. Also, unlike the regular bottles of JR15 that has the hollow glass stopper, this bottle has a wooden stopper. So I was skeptical that this was the new limited 17-21 year old bourbon. But there was a pamphlet there that showed a picture of the new VOJR and explained how it is a very very limited thing etc etc etc... But the bottle in the pic had the same stopper as the one in front of me, wooden, but the writing was gold and it had what appears to be a paper label around the middle of the bottle with handwritten info on it. Also, the boxes that these supposed VOJR bottles came in had stickers placed over where the box said 15yo and the stickers said Very Old.

At first I was thinking that they had old bottles of JR they needed to use up before implementing the new ones, but that cannot be since JR says 15yo on the front... The pamphlet did say that bottlings will be varying in proof's. Could it be that after making the pamphlet they found it was too hard to each batch change the proof and easily get it into each state due to weird laws regarding proof etc? I don't know, but on the bottles they had there there was no handwritten info on them. The proof was also the same as standard JR.

So even though there is a new whiskey out there, we still do not know all the details... We did get to try the new VOJR and we all said that it was indeed different than standard JR. I found it to be very very smooth and refined in taste. If anyone at all hears any info about this, let's post it here; For now, let the speculation begin!

[LeNell]

I just tasted this "Very Old" mystery Jefferson now that I'm back, and it is indeed quite good. I tried emailing Trey Zoeller at the address he gave me back at the Whiskey Fest, but the message bounced, and I have no other contact for him. This shipment sort of came out of nowhere so I'll post as soon as I find out any more details.

[cowdery]

Gee, maybe he'll tell you whose whiskey it really is (fat chance).

[LeNell]

I'm meeting with Trey tomorrow afternoon. Any questions you want me to throw him, lemme know. We know he ain't gonna answer my question about where the whiskey comes from but maybe I can pick his brain about this "Very Old" and other stuff.

[Paradox]

I wanna know if the stuff you had that says Very Old instead of 15 year is in fact the 17-20something year old VOJR. If it is then why isn't it in the bottle shown in the brochure they put out. Also, will it eventually be put into that bottle if it is the VOJR. AND if it is NOT VOJR in the bottles you had, wehy did they even cover up the box to say VOJR. You can use the pics in my old thread to show him the boxes in question and what I am hoping the eventual bottle will look like,a s shown in his brochure. Thanks Tonya! PS - I guess don't mention that I thought he would get back to me some time ago about this product... Man, I can't beleive it was last October already that I spoke to him about this bottling!

[LeNell]

I'll definitely ask for clarification, Mark.

One thing that Cliff pointed out is that both the 15 year and the VOJR that I now have say batch #29.

[cowdery]

Ask him if he's still involved with Kulsveen in trying to get Willett distilling again and how that's going.

[Barrel_Proof]

I guarantee that there weren't 28 previous 2400 bottle batches of the "Very Old" Jefferson's Reserve. This would not have passed unnoticed by the members of this august forum! My membership here permits me the luxury of making such a pronouncement with confidence.

[bourbonmed]

Tonya,

Ask Trey to come to the gazebo in Sept (with several bottles of his rumored extra aged 20+ yr VOJR) he's been talking about for past year. Our panel of experts will provide immediate reviews. A win-win situation!

Omar

[Bob]

Great idea Omar! I'll second that idea Tonya!

Bob

[LeNell]

Just met with Trey. We tasted through the SH, JR 8 year, 15, and VO. Here's the skinny.

The single barrel is on. Bottles will be hitting the market in early 2005. The single barrel will vary with age, proof, etc.

Trey won't be able to make it to the gazebo or the Festival due to conflicts but appreciates the invitation. Sends his regrets. Would have loved meeting with everyone, I'm sure.

The JRVO is a blend of 12-17 year old, not 17-20 as the salesperson mistakenly informed us. Our tasting bottle of JRVO had a batch 30 neck. It actually is a different tasting whiskey than the 15. I liked the JRVO much more than the 15. It's more complex and softer around the edges. The 15 is spicier with more notes of cinnamon and other fall spice qualities. Definitely two different bottles. I now have hanging neck tags for the VO for you collector folks who bought them already. Lemme know if you want a tag for your keeper bottles.

One other interesting tidbit. He said they are using level 1 char on the Jefferson bottlings. I didn't even know anyone used that low of a char anymore. SH has more rye in the mashbill and higher char, he said.

He gave me an affirmative regarding the connection with the Kulsveen Willet project starting back up.

A very pleasant get together tasting through some good booze.

[cowdery]

A #1 char probably is a good idea if you're going to age a bourbon into double digits. I haven't heard of it before either, but I'm constanting learning new things.

[Paradox]

Thanks for clearing up alot of stuff with him Tonya. I agree completely that the new Very Old Jeffersons is a bit more rounded and softer. Now it makes sense... They kept the same look and style bottle because the Very Old thats aged between 12-17 years is slowly going to replace the 15yo.

[LeNell]

Yeah, he said that the #1 char was for aging longer. I guess that would keep it from getting too overly woody over the years.