"Your 'Craft' Whiskey is Probably being Tracked by SKU"

[fishnbowljoe]

Just my two cents here FWIW. Hopefully two cents worth that might make a little sense to everyone.

The craft distillery industry seems to me to be a bit like everything else in the spirits business, and possibly elsewhere too. Most typically, everything seems to mostly fall into three basic categories. The good, the bad, the ugly??? :skep: Maybe something along those lines anyway.

#1. The craft distillers that try to put out a good product, while at the same time, they are above board and honest.

#2. The craft distillers that are honest, but might make a few mistakes along the way. Maybe they aren't quite sure how to "go about things". They do the best they can in their own eyes, but might err a little bit in the process, and ruffle some feathers along the way. In other words, they have no ill intent, but might step on their d**ks in the process.

#3. The wanton purveyors of lies? The pretenders? In other words, the craft distillers that seem to do whatever it takes to sell their product. Lie, feign ignorance, mislead people, whatever…. Y'all know what I mean.

I've had some pretty decent bourbon/ryes from craft distillers. The main craft products that I've tried and liked are from Smooth Ambler and High West. (Are they still considered craft distilleries?????) IMHO, both are in category #1. I've also had some ryes and bourbons that weren't all that good. I won't name the distilleries, for what to me are obvious reasons. A couple are in category #2. A few more are in category #3.

I've become pretty skeptical about most products from craft distillers. While I've had some good things, I've also been burned a few times too. Before I try something new, I'll generally do the best I can to ask questions of other members, or acquaintances/friends "in the industry". I also read what I can here about craft products, and if given the chance, I'll try and sample something before I even consider buying it. One never knows.

Joe

[cowdery]

Simple answer. Don't believe anything Templeton says. A person or company who will lie to you about anything will lie to you about everything.

MGP can make custom recipes or 'tweak' one of their standard recipes, but that costs a lot more and usually involves making more than most micros want. Also, although Templeton's relationship with MGP has surely evolved, they were buying fully-aged whiskey from MGP when they started (and when they wrote that on their web site) and there's no way to impose a 'family recipe' on a finished product.

[squire]

Yes Joe and for me this is the conundrum . . . I want the craft distillers to succeed. I want them to follow their passion and make something unique. I want them to provide a different experience with their whisky that will justify me paying more, buying more for gifts and recommending them to my friends.

[Paddy]

I think we should nominate MGP for distillery of the year. None of the other "crafts" are giving them any credit, so we may as well go ahead and do it for them! :grin:

Could you imagine our world without them? :shocked:

[alemmo]

Simple answer. Don't believe anything Templeton says. A person or company who will lie to you about anything will lie to you about everything.

MGP can make custom recipes or 'tweak' one of their standard recipes, but that costs a lot more and usually involves making more than most micros want. Also, although Templeton's relationship with MGP has surely evolved, they were buying fully-aged whiskey from MGP when they started (and when they wrote that on their web site) and there's no way to impose a 'family recipe' on a finished product.

Thank you for the response, that is what I suspected, that it would be impossible for the Templeton story with the old family recipe to be true. Personally I don't care how good some the whiskey is at these companies that blatantly lie and decieve. I won't give them a dime.

[cowdery]

That's how I feel and I don't understand the contrary position. People say, "I don't care about any of that stuff as long as the whiskey is good." My reply is, "why would you do business with someone you know is lying to you?"

Their reply sometimes is that "everybody lies to everybody all the time," which makes me sad. I couldn't go through life if I believed that. I believe you can trust just about everyone if you can determine how much you can trust them.

[squire]

I will not do business with anyone who lies to me and especially those who try to trick me into paying a premium price for an ordinary product, period. Period and about a thousand more periods.

[Lost Pollito]

As I got into my car to leave work today I heard Sku's golden voice discussing the article on All Things Considered.

Great catch Luther. Here is a link to the interview.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/07/30/336584438/why-your-small-batch-whiskey-might-taste-a-lot-like-the-others

Great job Sku.

[Flyfish]

I think we should nominate MGP for distillery of the year. None of the other "crafts" are giving them any credit, so we may as well go ahead and do it for them! :grin:

Could you imagine our world without them? :shocked:

Anybody know how old MGP bourbons are? Is some aged to specs of the buyer and some held until a buyer is found? Do they make any whiskey that is not already sold at the time of distillation? Nobody ever talks about MGP rick houses or stills or yeast(s?) or master distiller or....Even so, many of us clearly enjoy their products.

[Harry in WashDC]

. . . Nobody ever talks about MGP rick houses or stills or yeast(s?) or master distiller or....Even so, many of us clearly enjoy their products.

[Flyfish]

That's my point exactly. All of our impressions are rather vague. We agree that they make some damn fine stuff even if we are not quite sure what it is or who made it.

And yet we insist on spending our whiskey dollars with people we trust. Humans!

[luther.r]

I'm pretty sure they have bourbons older than 2 years, as some producers seem to be getting regular shipments of 7-11 year old barrels from them.

[tanstaafl2]

I'm pretty sure they have bourbons older than 2 years, as some producers seem to be getting regular shipments of 7-11 year old barrels from them.

I think it may be more of whether or not they have uncommitted barrels with any age on hand. Seems like older stock may already be owned by somebody so that if you want to start your usual brand new distillery that is selling 8yo whiskey that you lovingly made yourself to the special recipe your great grand cousin thrice removed made you are likely to be SOL!

[Harry in WashDC]

I'm pretty sure they have bourbons older than 2 years, as some producers seem to be getting regular shipments of 7-11 year old barrels from them.

AH! Found it!! With nothing better to do on a Friday afternoon, I found the post I was thinking of. Somebody posted in the "Transition to new distillate?" thread that New Riff supposedly bought 300 barrels of 8 to 9 year old bourbon from MGP, and Chuck Cowdery responded, in post #41, "Hmmm. Not long ago, I got it direct from the folks at MGP that they didn't have anything older than two years available. The only way the above can be true is (a) they actually bought these barrels a few years ago, or ( someone released some or all of a large batch of MGP whiskey for some reason, e.g., Diageo may have had more than it needed. These are the sorts of things even the more transparent NDPs are often not very transparent about."

Given CC's track record here and elsewhere, I'd like to see MGP saying "It ain't so" before I'd believe it ain't so.:grin:

[squire]

Harry I think the key word here is available. That doesn't mean they don't have older stocks on hand, just that they are already spoken for.

[Harry in WashDC]

That's what I meant, but I sure didn't say that. Sorry, Luther; didn't mean to step on you. "Uncommitted" and "Available" certainly are better descriptors than what I said.

[luther.r]

That's what I meant, but I sure didn't say that. Sorry, Luther; didn't mean to step on you. "Uncommitted" and "Available" certainly are better descriptors than what I said.

No problemo. I hadn't thought of the fact that they've probably got barrels committed for some of their older customers.

[smokinjoe]

The MPG website does have some scanty info on their beverage products (http://www.mgpingredients.com/alcohol/beverage/) including a link to their various whiskeys for sale at wholesale; it lists their mash bills. It also says, in a glossy sales brochure designed, apparently, for nondistillers interested in offering spirits that its ". . . renowned master distillers . . ." are ready to help ". . . meet your requirements . . ." for quality products (http://media.mgpingredients.com/documents/Beverage+Brochure+12.19.11+Split+Cover.pdf). Alas, I couldn't find a place listing who the renowned MDs are but have a vague recollection that a person in the know recently posted on SB that they have no whiskey older than 2 years.

Wooooweeee! Man, does that website pop and sizzle, and make me want to head out and pick up some chemic...er, I mean whiskey!

Well, for the many folks who want their whiskey with the fewest amount of marketing dollars attached, Midwest Grain Products Ingredients, Incorporated is your Holy Grail distiller.

Love their "...teams of food and grain science experts."!

[cowdery]

MGP has two master distillers; Randy Schrick, who is based at the company’s operations in Atchison, Kan., and Greg Metze, whose entire career has been spent at the company’s Lawrenceburg, Ind., facility.

Schrick, who also serves as vice president of engineering, has been engaged in the distillery business for 42 years. Metze is a distillery operations veteran of 35 years. Metze came up through Seagram's and trained under his predecessor, Larry Ebersold, who was master distiller there for 20 years. Ebersold is now consulting with New Riff, so there's a direct connection there.

Atchison makes grain neutral spirits primarily. About 3/4 of Lawrenceburg's capacity is neutral spirits and gin, about 1/4 is whiskey. In the whiskey distillery at Lawrenceburg they make ten different mash bills, all with the same yeast. Aging is done at the same site. I believe the warehouses are wooden superstructure with a steel skin, but I'm not 100% sure of that.

They do both custom distilling and bulk sales. That means they're making and aging whiskey on client orders but also on the 'if come' for sale down the road after some or full aging. Between 2007 and 2011 the previous owners really ran the place into the ground. Pre 2007, Pernod didn't do a great job either. The good result of bad management was that they did build up some stocks of aged bourbon and rye, although not much was put back toward the end because they were basically broke. After MGP took over and got their shit together, they sold off most of the old stuff and now they're running pretty much full throttle, trying to build it back up, but they're in the business of selling whatever they have and the demand is high right now. Unless one of their contract customers releases some well-aged stuff back to them, they don't have much to sell that's older than 2-3 years.

It's a big operation but a bit outdated. MGP has a new president and CEO who is an ex-Brown-Forman guy. I suspect the next big news from MGP will be about a major investment in updating and expanding their whiskey operation at Lawrenceburg. At least under the current circumstances the future there looks very bright but what they do is a low margin business. Right now they have it pretty much to themselves but you know that can't last.

Shanae Randolph is their PR person. I believe you can email her through their web site. They're very open. They can't, as you can imagine, talk about their customers but they're pretty open about their operations otherwise.

Edited August 10, 2014 by cowdery

[Old Dusty]

Aging is done at the same site. I believe the warehouses are wooden superstructure with a steel skin, but I'm not 100% sure of that.

Chuck, I think some of the rickhouses are brick clad too. My avatar is actually the Lawrenceburg facility. I will take some more pics next time business carries me that way.

[Harry in WashDC]

MGP has two master distillers . . . [snipped the rest]

Nothing like hard facts and knowledgeable commentary to settle everything down. Thanks, Mr. CC.

EDIT - The MGP website now has a short video featuring Gregg Metze. One of the reasons I go check out their website every so often is that current management has been updating the site and adding info of interest to "consumers". The website used to be pretty static and industrially-oriented. Just thought you might like to know.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Harry in WashDC
visit to MGP website after cowdery post

[HighHorse]

Thanks all for the thread. It has been interesting to follow comments all over the internet as this story went viral. When all is said & done, MGP will benefit from the attention. When this story broke, the stock price was under $8. It's 9.37 as I write this and has been over $10 today.

That's respect!

Edited August 12, 2014 by HighHorse
missing segment

[brettckeen]

And the internet takes it to possible litigation. So silly! http://www.consumer-classactions.com/investigations/internet-scam/have-you-purchased-small-batch-whiskey/

Sorry for previously starting a thread on this in the rye whiskey folder.

[squire]

I wonder how they'll convince a judge Seagrams 7 is small batch.

[Harry in WashDC]

I wonder how they'll convince a judge Seagrams 7 is small batch.