Finally a lawsuit based on false labeling claims. Tito's Vodka

[squire]

Gary they talk about this over on the ADI board. I believe they water the GNS down to about 30% (60 proof) then bring it off the pot still between 80-100 proof. I really don't see how this accomplishes much other than to be able to claim they "distilled" it. Arguably a more refined product could be created through filtering.

[sutton]

Really strange. What are they concentrating here, various minerals in the local water supply? No dog in this hunt - don't drink vodka, but this just seems to be an awfully expensive way to do next to nothing.

Why not just tell a good story but keep your label accurate? All you risk is the virtriol on boards like this, the majority of your customers are happily unaware. Just thinking of the extra costs of going through the motions but accomplishing ... what?

[Gillman]

Okay, interesting (re Squire's last note). To me that sounds like the extractive distillation I was projecting. This in fact can change the congener picture and alter the taste, and is an old idea. In F.X. Byrn's 1800's-era Practical Distilling text, he advises, albeit in a fairly terse way - this is how I read it - a procedure much like this to improve the flavour of distilled spirit. Look at the first full paragraph at p. 90:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=4pgrZj3dWygC&pg=PA1&dq=F.X.+Byrn+Practical+Distilling&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lAotVJ7RI8q2yATE64GwDA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=gently&f=false

Byrn is using 1800's terminology, essential oils means objectionable congeners. But note that he states if you dilute the spirit with water, you can further purify it - meaning reducing objectionable congener taste - by redistilling it "gently", i.e., at a relatively low heat. My interpretation of this is, the dilution changes the vaporization rate of objectionable congeners and permits them to vaporize at a low temperature instead of a very high one at which they are difficult to separate from water molecules. So you would discard that condensed vapour and keep the spirit in the pot. Once the desired taste profile is attained, the spirit is redistilled at a higher temperature to increase the alcohol strength and then bottled. Since they started with 190 proof spirit, there seems no need to re-distill it back to 190.

Personally if this is what Tito's is doing, I have no issue with it as it would in fact alter the taste especially if he is starting with an "industrial grade" of GNS.

Filtering with charcoal and other substances has always been controversial as to the exact results. Some people have considered that its effects on the spirit are questionable. Re-distilling may be a more certain way to achieve an alteration of palate especially if you are starting with an "industrial" grade of GNS. I think different grades of GNS are sold by some producers and if you make a sensible alteration to it through redistillation in pot stills, you are putting your own stamp to it especially considering the type of water you use. IMO.

Gary

Edited October 2, 2014 by Gillman

[Gillman]

It's interesting to look at what Byrn says on page 89 as well. In fact, on page 90, he says his method to achieve greater purity "already proposed" may be sufficient and clearly he prefers that first method because his primary concern was not to remove the signature taste of the spirit. If you were purifying a whiskey-mash, say, diluting it with water and redistilling would alter the liquid too much perhaps. This is not a concern of course with vodka, but might be for brandy or whiskey. On page 89, he advises to gently heat the spirit being purified in what is called usually today a bain marie (Byrn uses the Latin term):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain-marie

This is simply a water bath interposed between the heat source and the thing being heated, as in a double boiler. No mixture of spirit and water as such occurs. As I interpret Byrn, using a bain marie, you are still vaporizing a spirit for condensation, it is just that by keeping the boiling temperature low, you can more easily separate the congeners that are objectionable and close to water's temperature than if you boil at a higher temperature and too much of the congener comes over the helm as he calls it with the water. Then on pg. 90 he says, if that doesn't work, mix the spirit with water and boil very gently. Here though, I'd think the immersion in water reverses the vaporization rate of the objectionable congeners and the condensate (or head stream as it is called today) is discarded with the spirit in the alembic being retained for re-distilling to the desired strength. That's my interpretation again but the discussions are very limited at pp. 89-90 so maybe I don't have it quite right.

However, when Squire mentioned the possibility of spirit being mixed with water a few posts ago, I immediately thought of Byrn's comments on page 90 because he advises something very similar, his purpose being to get enhanced purity. Perhaps kickert or Randy B with their chemical engineering knowledge can comment (or others familiar with extractive or hydro-distillation).

But anyway what Squire referred to being discussed on the ADI board does sound to me like an extractive distillation that changes the congener picture, i.e., aside from what Byrn meant exactly.

Gary

Edited October 2, 2014 by Gillman

[squire]

That's very thorough Gary, and useful since the basic premises of distilling haven't changed since Byrn and others were publishing books upwards of 200 years ago.

The posts I was referencing on ADI were not about making a better product though, they're more along the lines of 'if you run it through your still you can claim you "made" it and get more money for it' which is purely profit motivated.

Where we differ though is over the efficacy of filtration. As I understand it virtually all the European producers of high end vodka use a proprietary filtering system (everything from charcoal to powdered rocks) so that must have some beneficial effect else they would forgo the expense.

[Gillman]

Thanks Squire and on your first point, I understand the slant people may want to put on it but in truth extractive distillation does alter the profile. This was hinted at in the statement from Tito's as I read it and enhances their argument IMO again. Remember too, this being vodka, we are not talking about huge changes in palate, small changes, extending to mouthfeel, can make a difference to the profile given its nature, that is.

On the second point, it's true many people use filtration and sometimes their own system such as silver birch and so forth. I have read different opinions of the actual result, though. I'll try to find some examples. Also, there may be some small change, but a greater one produced by extractive distillation - that may prove the key point here. Extractive distillation is no gimmick, it is used extensively in Canadian distilling, for example.

Gary

Edited October 2, 2014 by Gillman

[squire]

Would that they did Gary. Unfortunately it's all too easy (and profitable) to run it through unaltered just to say you did.

[Gillman]

I don't think they would do that though, plus (the trial will show) they may have the gas chromatographic evidence to show a material difference "pre" and "post".

Gary

[Gillman]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=50904&p=7242235&hilit=charcoal#p7242235

The last comment in this discussion is interesting. He seems to be saying that you can draw off the residual heads and tails mechanically so to speak, by siphoning the middle portion. These are the congeners one wants to reduce in the spirit. But I think too those tails at the top will simply vaporize by application of heat. I guess what I'm wondering is, if you dilute GNS in a pot still, or a preliminary vessel of some kind, can you separate out the elements you don't want mechanically or do you need to vaporize them out? Boiling in a pot still would only vaporize the tails, not the heavy alcohols, but maybe with GNS there aren't any heavy alcohols to worry about anyway - that would have been stripped out earlier or most of it like methanol - and all you want is tails reductions. At a minimum, I'd think pot stills are used to reconcentrate the spirit, but I wonder if they are used to actually vaporize off the tails as well. Any chemical engineer familiar with distillation could clarify any of this I believe.

Gary

[GeeTen]

Looks like we may never know what is really a "handmade" vodka:

 

https://munchies.vice.com/en/articles/lawsuits-alleging-that-titos-handmade-vodka-is-not-handmade-dropped

 

Most of the other lawsuits in different states appear to be dismissed on the basis of "no standing" or a judge not willing to challenge the determination of federal authorities when they approved the labels for the vodka.  And now "the last two (2) lawsuits that were brought against Tito's Handmade Vodka -- alleging  that it is not, in fact, handmade -- have been withdrawn from federal court in California."

 

It is interesting to note that "the two sides jointly requested the dismissal and will pay their own legal fees.  The trial, which was scheduled to start in October, is off."   Hmmmmmmmm, . . . . . . . as Artie Johnson used to say on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, "Very interesting!"

Edited July 4, 2016 by GeeTen
Spelling corrections

[whiskey buyer]

My only comment to the plaintiffs is a question: When you purchased the Titos and drank it; did you enjoy it?

[BigPapa]

19 hours ago, whiskey buyer said:

My only comment to the plaintiffs is a question: When you purchased the Titos and drank it; did you enjoy it?

It's Vodka of course they drank it. Vodka has no taste so it's usually drunk for effect. 

My opinion of course

[whiskey buyer]

11 hours ago, BigPapa said:

It's Vodka of course they drank it. Vodka has no taste so it's usually drunk for effect. 

My opinion of course

Maybe if they drank it all, then they can't sue for lack of evidence:)