TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

[Dave_in_Canada]

There have been a number of posts over the last few months which have prompted my post here.

When mentioning JD or Dickel, some members are corrected with the statement that TN whiskey is not a bourbon.

I understand that alot of SB.com members are seriously committed to bourbon, and upholding it's merit. But I'd like to seriously ask the question: technically, isn't TN whiskey a bourbon?

Of course, bourbon can be made in Tennessee, as in any other state. But the two TN whiskeys currently on the market have chosen to be labelled TN whiskey (due to their production style, state of manufacture, etc.).

Doesn't the spirit in the bottle adhere to the true legal definition of bourbon?

When I'm in a liquor store or bar, and ask for their bourbon selection, I too am somewhat put-0ff when offered a JD. But is that wrong?

The attempts by TN distillers to make their product distinctive through this use of terminology seems to have worked with the JD brand, but I'm not convinced the marketplace chooses JD over any other because it IS or ISN'T a bourbon, (or a TN whiskey for that matter).

Is it simply a case of jealosy on the part of bourbon lovers that JD (ie. the swill in the bottle) has done so well?

Comments welcome.

[jeff]

Dave,

TN Whiskies would be bourbons if not for the "Lincoln County Process" of filtering the whisky through large vats of sugar maple charcoal. This is a process which mellows the whisky and imparts flavors from the wood into it. Bourbon can have no additional flavor components. That is why it is not a bourbon. Dickle adds vitamins to theirs

[bobbyc]

Actually a good case used to be made that it was, Lincoln County process notwithstanding. The real reason it is not Bourbon, is because the BATF says it isn't.

<font color="blue"> Good God Give John Mayer Some </font>

[Dave_in_Canada]

Jeff when you spell Dickel as Dickle, it makes me think of PICKLE juice.

[jeff]

Jeff when you spell Dickel as Dickle, it makes me think of PICKLE juice.

That would be an improvement

[tdelling]

>But I'd like to seriously ask the question: technically, isn't TN whiskey

>a bourbon?

I'm going to disagree with everyone.

I hereby declare that Jack Daniels could legally be sold as a bourbon.

I challenge anyone to find regulations otherwise.

Go to http://www.access.gpo.gov/ecfr/ and look at Title 27, Volume 1, Chapter 1, Part 5.

Jack Daniels meets all the requirements for "bourbon whiskey", and I can

find no reason to exclude it from this category.

Tim Dellinger

[Dave_in_Canada]

Here's the full regulations. So long as the Lincoln process doesn't remove the percentages described in 5.27 ©

© Any filtering or stabilizing process which results in a product which does not possess the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to that class or type of distilled spirits; and, in the case of straight whisky, results in the removal of more than 15 percent of 

the fixed acids, volatile acids, esters, soluble solids, or higher alcohols, or more than 25 percent of the soluble color;

... then I would imagine that JD is a bourbon.

[jeff]

While not a regulation, I did find This Article that seems to concure with my assertion. Lets dig deeper into this, I'm curious now.

[Dave_in_Canada]

Hey Bobbby. I did some snooping on the BATF website and couldn't find anything against charcoal filtering. After all, most bourbon goes through some filtering (many use charcoal, irrespective of whether it is maple or not) but the TN process is pre-aging. I can't find anything here that disallows charcoal "mellowing".

[jeff]

According to This Article Tennessee Whiskey doesn't have to be made with corn, so long as it is made with 51% of some grain, though we all know that it is corn being used.

[jeff]

I know this is very unscientific, but if you go to www.jackdaniels.com and take the online tour, one of the tour guides will tell you that it is the charcoal mellowing that makes JD a Tennesse whisky and not a bourbon.

[Dave_in_Canada]

it is the charcoal mellowing that makes JD a Tennesse whisky and not a bourbon

Jeff, they've been saying that all along, as part of their marketing pitch (along with any other TN distiller and the US government which gave them their own "appellation"). I'm just trying to find legal evidence that TN whiskey is NOT bourbon. But I think it might be a bourbon, but more specifically a TN whiskey.

[tdelling]

>So long as the Lincoln process doesn't remove the percentages

>described in 5.27 ©

>...

>then I would imagine that JD is a bourbon.

If you look close at the language, I think the percents only apply

to "straight" whiskey.

Thus the percents would determine whether JD is a "straight bourbon whiskey"

or merely a "bourbon whiskey".

Looking at the other regulations:

I'm supposing that charcoal treatment isn't considered "treatment with wood",

so 5.39© doesn't apply.

I still haven't decided whether JD's charcoal could be considered a

"flavoring" under 5.23. That's a judgement call, and would be the only

reason I can think of to disqualify JD from being a bourbon. If the

process gives the whiskey an "ashy" taste, then it might be adding

flavor.

Tim Dellinger

[ratcheer]

I agree with you, Tim. And I will add two points: 1) The Tennessee whisky makers are trying to set themselves apart from bourbon by not referring to their product as bourbon and, 2) I have seen products (legally) labeled as Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey that state that they are "charcoal filtered".

A rose by any other name....

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Tim

[ratcheer]

No, charcoal filtering does not add any flavoring. It removes impurities.

Tim

[MurphyDawg]

But havent we argued before that the sugar maple charcoal filetering BEFORE aging is a quick fix aginfg process. And wouldnt "aging" constitute adding flavor?? ALso I remember both BT & HH mentioning "neutralized or actualized" charcoal, ie specificall mentioning they make their charcoal not to taste. JD's marketing at least implies their charcoal does.

TomC

[jeff]

Tim,

I think the charcoal filtering that KY Straight bourbon Whiskies are refering to is activated charcoal, which AFAIK doesn't impart anything into the whiskey. Sugar Maple Charcoal, again AFAIK, adds a subtle flavor to the finished product.

[jeff]

Thus the percents would determine whether JD is a "straight bourbon whiskey"

or merely a "bourbon whiskey".

Is there such a thing as a "bourbon whiskey" that is not a "straight whiskey"? I thought bourbon was a step further down the process, therefore to be a bourbon, it must first be a straight whiskey. Am I mistaken?

[jbutler]

Here's an excerpt from the BATF liquor regulations. From section 5.22, this pertains to the identity of "whisky". The entire document has been available here for years. ((1)(iii) is the part you are after Jeff.

Class 2; whisky.

"Whisky" is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash of grain produced at less

than 190° proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and

characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers (except that

corn whisky need not be so stored), and bottled at not less than 80° proof, and also

includes mixtures of such distillates for which no specific standards of identity are

prescribed.

(1)(i) "Bourbon whisky", "rye whisky", "wheat whisky", "malt whisky", or "rye

malt whisky" is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a

fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley,

or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125° proof in

charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of

the same type.

(ii) "Corn whisky" is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a

fermented mash of not less than 80 percent corn grain, and if stored in oak

containers stored at not more than 125° proof in used or uncharred new oak

containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood;

and also includes mixtures of such whisky.

(iii) Whiskies conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraphs ((1)(i)

and (ii) of this section, which have been stored in the type of oak containers

prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more shall be further designated as

"straight"; for example, "straight bourbon whisky", "straight corn whisky", and

whisky conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraph ((1)(i) of this

section, except that it was produced from a fermented mash of less than 51

percent of any one type of grain, and stored for a period of 2 years or more in

charred new oak containers shall be designated merely as "straight whisky".

No other whiskies may be designated "straight". "Straight whisky" includes

mixtures of straight whiskies of the same type produced in the same State.

(2) "Whisky distilled from bourbon (rye, wheat, malt, or rye malt) mash" is whisky

produced in the United States at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented

mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye

grain, respectively, and stored in used oak containers; and also includes mixtures

of such whiskies of the same type. Whisky conforming to the standard of identity

for corn whisky must be designated corn whisky.

(3) "Light whisky" is whisky produced in the United States at more than 160°

proof, on or after January 26, 1968, and stored in used or uncharred new oak

containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies. If "light whisky" is mixed

with less than 20 percent of straight whisky on a proof gallon basis, the mixture

shall be designated "blended light whisky" (light whisky--a blend).

(4) "Blended whisky" (whisky--a blend) is a mixture which contains straight

whisky or a blend of straight whiskies at not less than 20 percent on a proof

gallon basis, excluding alcohol derived from added harmless coloring, flavoring

or blending materials, and, separately, or in combination, whisky or neutral

spirits. A blended whisky containing not less than 51 percent on a proof gallon

basis of one of the types of straight whisky shall be further designated by that

specific type of straight whisky; for example, "blended rye whisky" (rye whisky--a

blend).

(5) (i) "A blend of straight whiskies" (blended straight whiskies) is a mixture of

straight whiskies which does not conform to the standard of identify for "straight

whisky." Products so designated may contain harmless coloring, flavoring, or

blending materials as set forth in 27 CFR 5.23(a).

(ii) "A blend of straight whiskies" (blended straight whiskies) consisting

entirely of one of the types of straight whisky, and not conforming to the

standard for straight whisky, shall be further designated by that specific type

of straight whisky; for example, "a blend of straight rye whiskies" (blended

straight rye whiskies). "A blend of straight whiskies" consisting entirely of one

of the types of straight whisky shall include straight whisky of the same type

which was produced in the same State or by the same proprietor within the

same State, provided that such whisky contains harmless coloring, flavoring,

or blending materials as stated in 27 CFR 5.23(a).

(iii) The harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials allowed under this

section shall not include neutral spirits or alcohol in their original state.

Neutral spirits or alcohol may only appear in a "blend of straight whiskies" or

in a "blend of straight whiskies consisting entirely of one of the types of

straight whisky" as a vehicle for recognized flavoring of blending material.

(6) "Spirit whisky" is a mixture of neutral spirits and not less than 5 percent on a

proof gallon basis of whisky, or straight whisky, or straight whisky and whisky, if

the straight whisky component is less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis.

(7) "Scotch whisky" is whisky which is a distinctive product of Scotland,

manufactured in Scotland in compliance with the laws of the United Kingdom

regulating the manufacture of Scotch whisky for consumption in the United

Kingdom: Provided, That if such product is a mixture of whiskies, such mixture is

"blended Scotch whisky" (Scotch whisky--a blend).

(8) "Irish whisky" is whisky which is a distinctive product of Ireland, manufactured

either in the Republic of Ireland or in Northern Ireland, in compliance with their

laws regulating the manufacture of Irish whisky for home consumption: Provided,

That if such product is a mixture of whiskies, such mixture is "blended Irish

whisky" (Irish whisky--a blend).

(9) "Canadian whisky" is whisky which is a distinctive product of Canada,

manufactured in Canada in compliance with the laws of Canada regulating the

manufacture of Canadian whisky for consumption in Canada: Provided, That if

such product is a mixture of whiskies, such mixture is "blended Canadian whisky"

(Canadian whisky--a blend).

[jeff]

Thanks Jim, I guess I was mistaken. Hell, I guess I don't know my Tenneess whiskey very well Oh well, I can live with that

[cornsqueezins]

I would have to agree with Jeff and say that the charcoal mellowing process introduces subtle flavoring elements. At least that's what my taste buds have been led to believe from JD ads and tour guides, etc. The power of suggestion may play into my impressions of JD but I'm pretty sure I've detected quite a bit of smokiness in certain bottles of JD before. I've automatically attributed that to the sugar maple charcoal without giving it much thought, but as we all know, barrel char level may account for some of that.

One thing I'm absolutely sure about: Kentucky Bourbon folks don't want JD calling itself "bourbon". And the folks at JD are more than happy to oblige them.

[MurphyDawg]

activated charcoal

THATS the word I was lookinf for, thanks Jeff!

TomC

[MurphyDawg]

They sell blended bourbon (sans the "straight" desegnation) around here, I think it is called Bourbon Deluxe. . . Also all the "Diluted Bourbon", like Old Dan Tucker, that we sell in Ohio supermarkets is non-straight-whiskey bourbon. Bleah on all of them.

TomC

[Barrel_Proof]

The leeching process -- at least as far as George Dickel goes -- also introduces the chewable flavors of Fred, Wilma, Barney, Betty, Pebbles, and Bam Bam.

Mark and I detected, as have others, the presence of those unmistakable Bedrock flavors in Bob's bottle of No. 12 during our tasting this past weekend.

[bobbyc]

Cliff, Do they not also dissolve them in a acetone solution prior to introducing them to the leeching vat?

<font color="brown"> Good God Give Jim Croce Some </font>