O'DubhGhaill Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I have tried to find the answer on my own, but if federal law requires that "Bourbon whisky" (27 CFR 5.22((1)(i)) "is whisky produced at not exceeding 160 proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn...and stored at not more than 125 proof in charred new oak containers...." how is it that barrel proof bourbons, e.g. ECBP, Stagg, etc., are bottled at proof exceeding 125? Does the proof increase as the angels take their annual share? Thanks for your patience with this question if it has been asked and answered here before. (BTW, the quoted code uses the Scot's "whisky" spelling throughout, probably because additional sections address other whiskies.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhatzung Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 You are almost correct when you asked if the proof increases as the angels take their annual share. Depending on location in the rick house as far as upper floors (more temperature variation) compared to lower floors, I believe the upper floor barrels loose more water (and increase in proof) and the lower floors loose more alcohol. I might have that reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thig Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I have been confused by that explanation before. Alcohol has lower boiling point than water so it looks like it would always evaporate first regardless of the temperature or location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBoldBully Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?13452-Proof-Increase-during-the-aging-processAccording to the above thread, this topic has been discussed on here a lot (but the discussions may not always be easy to find). The above thread also contains some clues about the reason(s) for proof increases during aging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBoldBully Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 According to a 1954 correspondence from the California State Board of Equalization:"It appears that the charred oak barrel acts as a semipermeable membrane through which water and alcohol pass to the outer atmosphere and oxygen enters the barrel. The alcohol molecules, being larger, do not pass through the barrel at the same rate as the water molecules. For this reason, although there is some evaporation of water and alcohol during the aging process, the water evaporates more rapidly than the alcohol and the proof tends to increase. . . . The study by Liebmann and Scherl shows first that proof increases during aging from appoximately 102 proof at the beginning of the period to about 109 proof at the end of an 8-year period." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'DubhGhaill Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 Thanks very much for the link BigBoldBully. I found a comment there that addressed the very question I had regarding why Scot's whisky abv decreased over time, whilst bourbon abv increases, often over half less the time that Scot's whisky ages. Very interesting magic at work on either side of the whiskey/whisky pond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyfish Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 ... the proof increases as the angels take their annual share. Depending on location in the rick house as far as upper floors (more temperature variation) compared to lower floors, I believe the upper floor barrels loose more water (and increase in proof) and the lower floors loose more alcohol. I might have that reversed.I've always found it rather amusing that the angels' share is actually water because the alcohol stays in the barrel. Less water = higher proof. I understand that bottom floors lose relatively less water. More water = lower proof. I don't think the lower floors lose more alcohol. (Somebody correct this if wrong.) By taking their share, the angels give us better bourbon. Bourbon concentrate as it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amg Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I've always found it rather amusing that the angels' share is actually water because the alcohol stays in the barrel. Less water = higher proof. I understand that bottom floors lose relatively less water. More water = lower proof. I don't think the lower floors lose more alcohol. (Somebody correct this if wrong.) By taking their share, the angels give us better bourbon. Bourbon concentrate as it were.Well, if the bourbon went into the barrel at 125 proof, and comes out at 115, then the proof went down. Barrels in both situations lose both water and alcohol, just in differing ratios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAbiker Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 An example of losing proof is the recently released Wild Turkey Masters Keep. As it was stored in a lower valley stone rickhouse, the smaller water molecules actually went INTO the barrel. It was barreled at 107 proof, dumped at 89 proof and bottled at 86.8. It was the time at the damper stone rickhouse that reduced it's proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amg Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 An example of losing proof is the recently released Wild Turkey Masters Keep. As it was stored in a lower valley stone rickhouse, the smaller water molecules actually went INTO the barrel. It was barreled at 107 proof, dumped at 89 proof and bottled at 86.8. It was the time at the damper stone rickhouse that reduced it's proof.Sure, but alcohol has to leave the barrel too, otherwise you would end up with a full barrel after 17 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillman Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I've always found it rather amusing that the angels' share is actually water because the alcohol stays in the barrel. Less water = higher proof. I understand that bottom floors lose relatively less water. More water = lower proof. I don't think the lower floors lose more alcohol. (Somebody correct this if wrong.) By taking their share, the angels give us better bourbon. Bourbon concentrate as it were.The answer on angel's share is, it is a European expression originally, meant to explain conditions in French brandy and Scots whisky warehouses. It was adapted for use here but implies imperfectly for the reason you mentioned. Where outside atmosphere is very high in humidity, water can enter barrel too, which is probably why some Scots whisky has a faint saline edge. So the comparative loss of water and alcohol sometimes favours one or the other depending on the maturation conditions.Garywww.beeretseq.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyfish Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Thanks to Gillman, amg, and GAbiker. You guys, and those like you, are why SB is worth way more than the cost of membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Thanks to Gary also for the reference to his site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'DubhGhaill Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 I just now discovered a very interesting . He discusses, inter alia, how barrels on the first floor will lose proof over time while those far up will experience dramatic increases in proof over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry in WashDC Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Nice link. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeTerp Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 That was a really cool link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spade Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Thanks for sharing this. It was super cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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