Woodford Reserve Brandy Finish

[lcpfratn]

I know I'm fairly new here, and I only really ventured into exploring the many bourbons and whiskeys/whiskys available a few years ago, so my opinion probably doesn't mean much, but I really like this bourbon. So much so that not only did I add a third bottle, but I even added a fourth bottle to my stash when I stumbled onto another bottle yesterday. I will have this to enjoy and share for some time to come, and I doubt I'll be able to find it collecting dust on liquor store shelves like many of the other past WRMC series that I see sitting on many store shelves...unless Woodford has another similar batch in the making.


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[smokinjoe]

2 hours ago, flahute said:

Joe normally sucks me into being a buyer with his reviews but I don't tend to like finished bourbons so my shields are still holding.

I vill break you down ewentually...muwahahaha 

[Harry in WashDC]

I only have this to say about that -- I STILL have an almost full bottle of WR Classic Malt something that neither my scotch-drinking brother-in-law nor me (who can drink about anything INCLUDING Chinese liqueurs BUT NOT Islay single malts) can stomach except at Christmas when we try it to see if it got "better".  Until that's gone, I am listening to NONE of you guys about WR offerings.  Just saying.

[Thig]

I only have this to say about that -- I STILL have an almost full bottle of WR Classic Malt something that neither my scotch-drinking brother-in-law nor me (who can drink about anything INCLUDING Chinese liqueurs BUT NOT Islay single malts) can stomach except at Christmas when we try it to see if it got "better".  Until that's gone, I am listening to NONE of you guys about WR offerings.  Just saying.

Harry I poured that shit down the drain a long time ago and moved on. Not trying to convince you otherwise but the Brandy Finish Woodford is in a whole other class.

[Harry in WashDC]

3 minutes ago, Thig said:

 

Harry I poured that shit down the drain a long time ago and moved on. Not trying to convince you otherwise but the Brandy Finish Woodford is in a whole other class.

Thig, I just happen to have a spare $100 that could have gone to Booker's in January (hahahaha; as if).  And, I do like finished bourbons for sipping late at night.  I'll give it a shot.

[Thig]

Thig, I just happen to have a spare $100 that could have gone to Booker's in January (hahahaha; as if).  And, I do like finished bourbons for sipping late at night.  I'll give it a shot.

I bought it based on Smokinjoe review and I am liking it, I will admit not quite as much as HWMWND but that is a unicorn I can't find.

[Thig]

Thig, I just happen to have a spare $100 that could have gone to Booker's in January (hahahaha; as if).  And, I do like finished bourbons for sipping late at night.  I'll give it a shot.

You almost had me with that Booker's comment, I am still paying 39.99 for Booker's.

[Harry in WashDC]

1 minute ago, Thig said:

 

You almost had me with that Booker's comment, I am still paying 39.99 for Booker's.

The cheapest I've paid is $43.  When it is over $55, I've always passed.  I don't like it THAT much.  RE: Smokinjoe's thoughts - like yours, probably, his palate is close enough to mine that I'll take a shot now and then which is why I'll keep an eye out for this.  Problem in WashDC is that stores get to set their own prices, and things, like the WR LEs, sometimes are in high demand and, therefore, get tagged with higher than MSRP prices.  I'll ask around.

[JoeTerp]

10 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

The cheapest I've paid is $43.  When it is over $55, I've always passed.  I don't like it THAT much.  RE: Smokinjoe's thoughts - like yours, probably, his palate is close enough to mine that I'll take a shot now and then which is why I'll keep an eye out for this.  Problem in WashDC is that stores get to set their own prices, and things, like the WR LEs, sometimes are in high demand and, therefore, get tagged with higher than MSRP prices.  I'll ask around.

If you make it out to VA it's sitting in their stores for $100 (lots of stores seem to have a few bottles). 

[Harry in WashDC]

52 minutes ago, JoeTerp said:

If you make it out to VA it's sitting in their stores for $100 (lots of stores seem to have a few bottles). 

Thanks, Joe.  I hadn't looked, figuring it was a lottery offering, and I'm a nonresident so . . .

 

BUT, the VA ABC website shows it as a limited-but-instore product rather than a lottery offering and that lots of stores, as you pointed out, have one or two or so.  I drove right by the Williams Street store in Fredericksburg yesterday.  If I had only known.

[lcpfratn]

So many of the past WRMC series have been disappointments, as discussed even in this thread, that most of the Brandy Finish bottles that I bought in the last few weeks were just sitting out on the shelf rather than being treated as anything very special. Of course I see older WRMC series sitting on shelves and not selling too.


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[JoeTerp]

13 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

Thanks, Joe.  I hadn't looked, figuring it was a lottery offering, and I'm a nonresident so . . .

 

BUT, the VA ABC website shows it as a limited-but-instore product rather than a lottery offering and that lots of stores, as you pointed out, have one or two or so.  I drove right by the Williams Street store in Fredericksburg yesterday.  If I had only known.

Yeah it was a little surprising, cause anything even close to limited usually goes on lottery or online sale. I guess they chose a small release store by store given some of the past history of the woodford limited releases. 

[tanstaafl2]

You know this has to be the good stuff! After all Korbel brandy is a B-F brand so that is going to be some high quality brandy finish...

 

Full disclosure, I bought one as well after swearing off WRMC for the past several years. At least if I don't like it I can blame Joe this time!

 

 

[BourbonDrinkingSailor]

I actually picked one of these up a few weeks ago at the woodford gift shop, despite hating the 1838 white corn, and the classic malt. This stuff is fantastic. I do feel like it was released at the wrong time of year though. The brandy gives this a brightness that I feel like would be better served for summer nights than as something to keep me warm in the winter. 

[Harry in WashDC]

Chris Morris, B-F Master Distiller, did a presentation on WR at last night's WhiskyFestDC.  The tasting consisted of basic WR, WR Double Oaked, WR Rye, and WR Brandy finish (the 2016 Masters Collection which is why I posted here instead of starting a new WR thread).

 

After giving us some history, Mr. Morris told us that, since WR's introduction in 1996, its barrel entry proof has been 110, and its mash bill is 72% corn, 18% rye, and 10% malted barley with no added enzymes.  The WR yeast is one of ten heirloom strains B-F has picked up through acquisitions over the last 100 years (but I don't remember his telling us which one).  He said he has maintained WR's bottle proof at 90.4 and likely will keep it there for all permanent releases.  This will INCLUDE the Double Oaked (barrel entry proof 95-98) which will keep its own copper colored neckband and the Rye which will get/already has gotten its own new green neckband, both of which should be available nationwide.

 

The Rye mash bill is 53% rye, 33% corn, and 14% malted barley.  The 2016 MC brandy finish was finished (as Bruce already pointed out) in barrels that held 24yr old Korbel brandy.

 

He said WR intends to continue releasing MC experiments every November for the foreseeable future (several more years, at least).  When asked about releasing a cask strength, he said higher proof experiments are/will be added to the distiller series.  He also noted that higher proofs are available at the distillery gift shop in 375ml @ $50.

 

I already have a bottle of the 2016 MC brandy finish and love it.  The Rye surprised me - no mint bomb, no pickle, no grass.  At 53% rye, I should have known it'd be closer to Ritt in profile than MGP's high rye.  It works well as a neat sipper.  Adding a little water, however, caused it to lose its edge, IMO, so I wouldn't think it'd hold up in cocktails.  RE:  the WR DO, it really is oaky.  Let me write that again - it is really oaky.

 

Finally - WR does not have a SiB selection program but does have a "blend your own two" or some such at the distillery.  I'm sure one of us on SB has more correct info on that. 

[tanstaafl2]

1 hour ago, Harry in WashDC said:

Chris Morris, B-F Master Distiller, did a presentation on WR at last night's WhiskyFestDC.  The tasting consisted of basic WR, WR Double Oaked, WR Rye, and WR Brandy finish (the 2016 Masters Collection which is why I posted here instead of starting a new WR thread).

 

After giving us some history, Mr. Morris told us that, since WR's introduction in 1996, its barrel entry proof has been 110, and its mash bill is 72% corn, 18% rye, and 10% malted barley with no added enzymes.  The WR yeast is one of ten heirloom strains B-F has picked up through acquisitions over the last 100 years (but I don't remember his telling us which one).  He said he has maintained WR's bottle proof at 90.4 and likely will keep it there for all permanent releases.  This will INCLUDE the Double Oaked (barrel entry proof 95-98) which will keep its own copper colored neckband and the Rye which will get/already has gotten its own new green neckband, both of which should be available nationwide.

 

The Rye mash bill is 53% rye, 33% corn, and 14% malted barley.  The 2016 MC brandy finish was finished (as Bruce already pointed out) in barrels that held 24yr old Korbel brandy.

 

 

 

Don't suppose you got any insight on if the rye has any Woodford in it, despite the name, or if it is in reality all B-F distillate?

[flahute]

2 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

Finally - WR does not have a SiB selection program but does have a "blend your own two" or some such at the distillery.  I'm sure one of us on SB has more correct info on that. 

Yep - I did just this back in November. You start with six single barrels and taste them individually and rank them. They typically take your top four and do blends of every permutation for you to evaluate. Our group narrowed it to three barrels right away so we had less blends to choose from. The one we picked eventually had my 1 and 2 ranked barrels so I was pleased.

After we chose our blend, they revealed the barrel details. My bottom two ranked barrels were pot still distilled at Woodford. The rest were distilled in Shively at OF.

[Harry in WashDC]

20 hours ago, tanstaafl2 said:

 

Don't suppose you got any insight on if the rye has any Woodford in it, despite the name, or if it is in reality all B-F distillate?

Bruce, et al RE: insight on where WR Rye is distilled –

During the class, Chris Morris said, according to my notes, “We started making rye about 12 years ago.”  That would be circa 2004.  He mentioned Old Potrero by name as one of the few rye whiskies available at the time.  By 2008, he noted, the rye market, especially in the cocktail sector, was demanding more and better ryes.  I took the “we” to mean “we at WR in our experimental still”.  After you asked about insights, I spent a little while digging.  WR Rye’s mash bill is 53% rye, 33% cord, and 14% malted barley.

 

Keep dates I mention in mind as I found some curious coincidences.

 

Of course, I could find no authoritative answer, but I did find some hints that it might be made at WR’s Versailles KY distillery but also could be made at JD’s Canadian Mist Distillery in Collingwood, Ontario, but aged and bottled in Versailles.  The WR Rye label is only partially helpful.  It says “Kentucky Straight Rye Whiskey” but also says “Produced by the Woodford Reserve Distillery/Versailles, Kentucky USA”.  I wish they’d used the word “Distilled” instead of “Produced”.  At least it doesn’t say “Tennessee Straight . . .”  JD acquired the CanMist Distillery in 1971; B-F makes both Canadian Mist and Collingwood Canadian Whisky there.

 

The JD rye mash bill for its unaged rye (released in 2012), its Rested Rye (2014), and its SiB aged rye (Feb 2016) is 70% rye, 18% corn, and 12% malted barley according to the JD website.  Hence, I eliminated JD as a source. which also says this is the "first new grain bill from Jack Daniel's in more than 100 years."  Surely they are telling the truth.

 

Now, about that CanMist/Collingwood connection – according to a review of Collingwood Canadian Whisky that Davin de Kergommeaux wrote and posted on 15 OCT 2011 (www.canadianwhisky.org/reviews/collingwood-40-alcvol-canadian-whisky-review.html), Chris Morris and CanMist’s Master Distiller at the time (since retired), Lincoln Ferguson, collaborated around 2008 on Collingwood’s creation.  Collingwood (the blend, not the 21-yr-old rye which was a one-time release) was released in Feb 2011 and had been finished by placing toasted maple staves in a vat of the “fully aged” Collingwood for up to a year. This product was then trucked to Versailles for bottling at the WR facility.  Curiously and coincidentally, Chris Morris’s Master’s Collection experiment of finishing WR by placing fully aged WR in maple barrels was released in 2010.  Although Davin’s article is not really clear on the issue, it and some other articles I read (which don’t read like they are cribbing from Davin’s) indicate that Collingwood does NOT use the same blending recipe as CanMist; hence, Collingwood is not just older CanMist.  To add to this swirl of coincidences, The WR Master’s Collection release in 2011 was its “Rare Rye”.  Its success led directly, so say lots of people, to WR Rye’s addition in May (?) 2015 as a permanent WR member of the WR portfolio.

 

One more non-scientific, totally anecdotal observation:  I went back through my notes for WhiskyFestDC for this year and last year and discovered that I had tasted Collingwood 21 yr. rye as well as the Collingwood blend last year.  My notes for the WR Rye this year have the comment, “fruity like a fruit brandy”.  My comments from last year for both Collingwood’s ALSO contain that word “fruit”.  Coincidence?  Just like those overlapping dates and common "production" facilities are coincidence?  Could be.

 

I did find one blogger (Tim Knittel, 18 FEB 2017) who posted an article about Chris Morris (https://blog.distiller.com/chris-morris-woodford-reserve/) that linked to an undated blogpost by Amanda Schuster about “Woodford Reserve Rye” that states, “It’s made from a 53% mash bill, produced and aged at their distillery in Versailles, Kentucky.”  There’s that “produced” instead of “distilled” again.  SEE, https://distiller.com/spirits/woodford-reserve-rye

 

I did not ask WR via email whether WR Rye is made only in Versailles, but those dates and the collaboration and the trucking of CanMist/Collingwood stuff to Versailles make the CanMist distillery more likely, to me, than the JD facility in TN, IF it isn't made in Versailles.  I did check COLAs to see whether there was any mention of the CanMist facility, and there was not.

 

Respectfully submitted.  Errors (and there likely are some) and faulty assumptions (and there likely are some of those, too) may not be obvious to the casual reader so don't rely too much on this when deciding on the provenance of WR Rye.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Harry in WashDC
just messing with my own words-nothing important

[Paddy]

Nice report Harry.  I agree, in that it's doubtful that WR is distilling rye.  Hell, they are already Bound by the limited capacity of the pot stills, so why would they want to slow down production (and gum up their equipment) for added runs of rye mash?  IMO, it's great for marketing, but poor business sense (so leave the masses in the dark).

[Harry in WashDC]

1 hour ago, Paddy said:

Nice report Harry.  I agree, in that it's doubtful that WR is distilling rye.  Hell, they are already Bound by the limited capacity of the pot stills, so why would they want to slow down production (and gum up their equipment) for added runs of rye mash?  IMO, it's great for marketing, but poor business sense (so leave the masses in the dark).

I had a thought - maybe B-F is making it in Shively along with ET and OF.  But then, I've seen no mention of those products or that distillery in anything mentioning WR EXCEPT for an old (2000) ellenjaye post saying WR was first made there (http://ellenjaye.com/earlytimes.htm).  I also could not find a mention of any rye being made there.  That Collingwood connection is still intriguing.  And, this is sure a lot more fun than knowing the answer and having nothing to read up on or talk about.

[flahute]

11 minutes ago, Harry in WashDC said:

I had a thought - maybe B-F is making it in Shively along with ET and OF.  But then, I've seen no mention of those products or that distillery in anything mentioning WR EXCEPT for an old (2000) ellenjaye post saying WR was first made there (http://ellenjaye.com/earlytimes.htm).  I also could not find a mention of any rye being made there.  That Collingwood connection is still intriguing.  And, this is sure a lot more fun than knowing the answer and having nothing to read up on or talk about.

Given the high percentage of WR bourbon being distilled in Shively (see my post above), it makes sense that the rye would be distilled there as well. The Versailles facility is small. 

[Harry in WashDC]

3 hours ago, flahute said:

Given the high percentage of WR bourbon being distilled in Shively (see my post above), it makes sense that the rye would be distilled there as well. The Versailles facility is small. 

Thanks. Steve.  I didn't focus on that the first time.  Thus, I spent some more time reading online and have found several articles discussing WR's continuing production in Shively (no volumes, however) but no mention of the rye.  Maybe it's time for me to send an email directly to WR asking nicely where it's made.  It'll certainly keep my fingers from getting tired with all this typing.  

[tanstaafl2]

B-F made a ton of Rittenhouse rye for HH before HH took over production again and that had to be coming out of Shively, not Versailles. And probably since not long after the 1996 fire and certainly well before 12 years ago. So Shively has to be pretty well versed in making rye whiskey! Just add 2% more rye to the mashbill from Shively and then you have "Woodford" rye.

 

I would think HH gave B-F some kind of heads up on when they would be taking over the Ritt production again so B-F would have had plenty of notice about when to modify their mashbill from Ritt to the new 53% Woodford mashbill.

 

The Canadian angle is interesting but would never have worked to make Rittenhouse BIB. No guarantee of course that the old B-F Rittenhouse and the current Woodford rye aren't from completely different sources but it just seems unlikely. I too would rule out JD, it tastes very different.

 

I suppose B-F would be happy to have Shively spending its time making as much bourbon as it can right now and not worry about making rye there too.

 

Mostly a curiosity. Is "Woodford" rye really coming from Woodford? Is it a blend of Woodford and Shively distillate like Woodford Bourbon is? Is it all Shively? Or is it something different all together?

[Paddy]

^^^^My money is on 100% Shively.  But... Woodford Reserve Rye sounds better, so therein lies the name.

[tanstaafl2]

8 minutes ago, Paddy said:

^^^^My money is on 100% Shively.  But... Woodford Reserve Rye sounds better, so therein lies the name.

 

Yeah, that has been my thought all along. But it would be nice to know. I don't really know WHY I want to know.

 

But I do!