The business of allocation

[inf3st]

It means he's making sure all of his regulars get first go at it. That's how I am. Dick move to display it though.

[meadeweber]

Odd to say "his own" not his regulars.  

[$helby]

12 hours ago, Flyfish said:

Really? I curse the fact that I live in a controlled state. I am protected from merchants who want to charge what the traffic will bear. But I would never pay $300 for a bottle of anything whatsoever. If I think the price is too high for anything, not just bourbon, I always have the option of not buying. I am also protected from merchants who might want to enhance their business by charging less than the established price. Recently, for example, I bought Booker's in KY for $20 less than it goes for in OH. Most of all, I am protected from buying anything that the state gods decide I don't really want anyway. Such as anything named Weller, for example. State control is not just about price, it is also about who gets to decide what your options are. 

Sounds like Ohio operates way different.    The great thing is NC pretty much authorizes almost every bourbon and receives an allocation of most limited releases. Same for VA where I used to live.   Neither one is always in stock on items like Weller , BT, Blantons, and Eagle Rare but most stores have them every so often and always at MSRP.  YES, occasionally private stores in SC have a sale with everyday items $5-6 cheaper but it's not worth a special trip.  

[BottledInBond]

I  honestly feel bad for a lot of the store owners/managers. They do get asked about allocated items constantly, including lots of random calls every day from all over.

 

I also feel bad that they have to sell a bunch of cases of Fireball or whatever to get a couple bottles of LEs.

 

That said, the term "douchery" has been used and totally applies based on putting them on display with price tags if they aren't actually available for sale.

 

[Canarse]

On 10/27/2016 at 6:39 PM, Clueby said:

 

As someone who has lived in both states I can say it's way different in NC than Ohio.  Ohio has been a liquor wasteland for decades.  Who knows how they operate.  They used to have agents sitting on bridges waiting for folks to come back from KY with liquor and they would bust them.  

 

In NC the state controls the purchase of liquor from the distributors.  The counties buy from the state.  Some counties are much more aggressive about getting the LE products.  The state tries to even it out, but some counties are too lazy to get the stuff when it comes in.  The fact that everything is at MSRP unless the state has a deal is very nice in the case of LE whiskey.  Then again, NC gets stiffed on supply from time to time.  Hard to find BT products, but if you make a drive to MD the stuff is everywhere.  Frankly, it adds a bit to the fun of bourbon hunting.  I have way more than I need, but still enjoy the thrill of the hunt and am happy when I can pick up something nice.

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Canarse
Sorry, I copied the wrong post, so I deleted it.

[Hop]

On 10/27/2016 at 4:37 PM, inf3st said:

I promise you that it's even harder telling someone you can't sell them something than being told no. They guy is right in making sure to take care of his regulars. He is a dumb ass for putting the stuff out though. I am in a situation similar to this. I have customers that drive 30 min at least once a week to shop at my store and because of the amount of allocated product I have. I have some that drive 2 hours once a month. But as long as I see them frequenting the store I do make sure they get something. It may not be BTAC or PVW that they get but they will get something. Allocations suck for everyone. That I promise.

I can appreciate your practices and as someone who spent quite a bit of money in a store in East TN (West Knoxville) and drove 2-3 hours for it,  just buying "off the shelf" because the store had such a great selection of barrel selects, good prices, even better specials, after finding the store and buying well over $3k of products many times by the case with the majority being Bourbon and a little wine and champagne thrown in - there were two things that turned me off.  

 

The first was when they did their "lottery" they were charging secondary prices for everything they released, and in the lottery there was no accounting for the regulars they just got in line with everyone else - not that I would have purchased anyway due to the prices, I don't mind a little markup on hard to find specialty items but 3 times retail plus is out of line.  

 

The second is that this store seemed to just decide to turn off their focus on Bourbon and move to other things, why I don't know.  Their selection now is less than 1/3rd of where it was just 18 months ago and now instead of turning other bourbon lovers onto the store I give an honest review of what's happened.  

 

That said - based on your comments I wish your store was in East TN rather than West...

Edited October 29, 2016 by Hop

[jvd99]

On 10/27/2016 at 7:30 PM, $helby said:

Everyday I thank my lucky stars to live in a state run area.   Every municipality runs their own stores but prices and selection is determined by the state.  It does indeed pay dividends to be a known good customer in a given municipality.   My last purchases were the direct result of the store manager knowing I buy many everyday shelf stock skus from him.   Building my bunker and never paying more than msrp and never ever selling a bottle is highly satisfying.   Even more so knowing my son enjoys Bourbon as much as I do and any bunkered bottles left will pass on to him! 

 

 

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help" - if only it were that simple

[WatchUrSix]

Sounds like Ohio operates way different.    The great thing is NC pretty much authorizes almost every bourbon and receives an allocation of most limited releases. Same for VA where I used to live.   Neither one is always in stock on items like Weller , BT, Blantons, and Eagle Rare but most stores have them every so often and always at MSRP.  YES, occasionally private stores in SC have a sale with everyday items $5-6 cheaper but it's not worth a special trip.  

I have found recently, on allocated and even common items, NC is much better.

I drive 45 mins from Spartanburg and Greenville area to shop in Asheville. Better selection and prices are never gouged like I've found in SC. Even major retailers prices are higher most times.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[0895]

On 10/27/2016 at 3:27 PM, Clueby said:

Stopped into a store I had never been in before that is about 1/2 hour from where I live.  I then noticed a glass case with a lot of "allocated" bourbon, including ETL, W12, ORVW, etc. As I started to walk up to it he called out loudly to me that those are "display only" even though they were marked with prices.  I asked him if he doesn't sell anything out of that case? He again stated that only for his "best customers". He said he gets the "best stuff every week" and people travel to buy from him....

 

So after trolling this forum for several months, I saw your post and had to sign up just to add my component to this story.

I know the store you speak of (down south by the big water tower), and I know the story behind why those bottles are sitting in that case unsold.

 

Last fall, I went into this store for the first time, just to see if there was anything interesting.  Purchased $200.00 in bourbon because as you said, the selection and prices were both very good.

While packing up my purchases, I politely inquired about rare releases, specifically VW and BTAC.  He took my name down and said "You're first on the list.  My manager will be in touch if we get anything".

I then proceeded to come back a few times and make additional purchases, just to check in and let them know I was a customer.  And I legitimately was.....they had a good selection and good prices.

 

Several weeks later, the "manager" called me from a blocked # and said, I have a 10, 12, 23 van winkle and also a handy and a william larue weller in stock.

After asking how many I could buy, the "manager" tells me "as many as you like....I'm taking bids on all the bottles and the highest bidder out of all the customers on my list will get the bottles they want".

 

So I reluctantly said ok and put in some bids on a few bottles that were about 2x msrp.

 

3 days later, the "manager" calls me back and says "You were high bidder on VW 12 and 23, but the 23 is worth much more on the internet than your bid, so you either need to raise your bid or I cannot sell it to you.

I explained to him that I would be drinking the PVW23 and could not pay black market price and that I felt he should honor my bid of 2x msrp.  I even offered to break the seal in front of him at the time of purchases and take a swig.

 

He told me he would think about it and call me back.

Next day he calls me back and says "Sorry, you were outbid on everything.  Do you want to raise your bids?"

So I thought about it for a minute and bid every bottle up to the asking prices that I was seeing on bottle spot.

The "Manager" then sounded very excited and said "Ok, those are great bids......I'll call you tomorrow"

The next day he called and said that I had won every single bottle.  All the VW and BTAC.

He told me to come to the store right at closing time with cash.

 

I never showed up and didn't answer his constant phone calls / voicemails / texts for the next week.

 According to you and some friends, some of the bottles are still sitting there in the case.  But he won't sell them.  I've sent several people to try to buy them.....even offering more than msrp.

I suppose if you offered him full black market price, he'd probably sell.

 

The point is that:

1. The "manager" wouldn't give me his name and would never meet me face to face.  So I'm not sure how many employees actually work there.  But he swore he wasn't the guy who checked me out the nights I made my purchases (it was always the same tall guy).

2. They (owners, clerks, managers, whatever) know what the bottle prices are on the black market, and basically want those prices for them.

3. The whole operation is shady.  They have a few other store locations with the same name, and I've been in those locations as well.  And they are somewhat shady too.

Not sure if the same family owns them all or what the situation is, but they are well educated on the bourbon game and know what they are doing.

 

That being said, they do have a great selection.  Prices used to be dirt cheap, but they have slowly been rising as they realize they can make more money. 

For example, blanton's was $47.99 last fall and when I sent a friend in a few months ago it was $59.99.

 

Obviously I don't shop there anymore because I don't want any negative interactions over the whole VW ordeal, but I'm fine with that.

I'd much rather support a place that doesn't play games with its customers.

[Richnimrod]

0895, I am getting a mental pic of you, shaped like a towel being rung out of the last drop of moisture while on the phone with this avaricious turd.    I would've been a bit more 'up-front' with the guy and told him what I thought of his business practices (I have little patience for money-grubbers, and not much of a 'filter, I'm told); but your way isn't that bad strategy either.    What an A-hole (or group of 'em), to treat customers in such a fashion.

[Bourbonmakesmepoop]

I liked that story 0895, way to stick it to him!!

[ebo]

On 10/28/2016 at 8:13 AM, Flyfish said:

Really? I curse the fact that I live in a controlled state. I am protected from merchants who want to charge what the traffic will bear. But I would never pay $300 for a bottle of anything whatsoever. If I think the price is too high for anything, not just bourbon, I always have the option of not buying. I am also protected from merchants who might want to enhance their business by charging less than the established price. Recently, for example, I bought Booker's in KY for $20 less than it goes for in OH. Most of all, I am protected from buying anything that the state gods decide I don't really want anyway. Such as anything named Weller, for example. State control is not just about price, it is also about who gets to decide what your options are. 

I also live in Ohio.... and I approve this message!

[Clueby]

11 hours ago, 0895 said:

 

So after trolling this forum for several months, I saw your post and had to sign up just to add my component to this story.

I know the store you speak of (down south by the big water tower), and I know the story behind why those bottles are sitting in that case unsold.

 

Last fall, I went into this store for the first time, just to see if there was anything interesting.  Purchased $200.00 in bourbon because as you said, the selection and prices were both very good.

While packing up my purchases, I politely inquired about rare releases, specifically VW and BTAC.  He took my name down and said "You're first on the list.  My manager will be in touch if we get anything".

I then proceeded to come back a few times and make additional purchases, just to check in and let them know I was a customer.  And I legitimately was.....they had a good selection and good prices.

 

Several weeks later, the "manager" called me from a blocked # and said, I have a 10, 12, 23 van winkle and also a handy and a william larue weller in stock.

After asking how many I could buy, the "manager" tells me "as many as you like....I'm taking bids on all the bottles and the highest bidder out of all the customers on my list will get the bottles they want".

 

So I reluctantly said ok and put in some bids on a few bottles that were about 2x msrp.

 

3 days later, the "manager" calls me back and says "You were high bidder on VW 12 and 23, but the 23 is worth much more on the internet than your bid, so you either need to raise your bid or I cannot sell it to you.

I explained to him that I would be drinking the PVW23 and could not pay black market price and that I felt he should honor my bid of 2x msrp.  I even offered to break the seal in front of him at the time of purchases and take a swig.

 

He told me he would think about it and call me back.

Next day he calls me back and says "Sorry, you were outbid on everything.  Do you want to raise your bids?"

So I thought about it for a minute and bid every bottle up to the asking prices that I was seeing on bottle spot.

The "Manager" then sounded very excited and said "Ok, those are great bids......I'll call you tomorrow"

The next day he called and said that I had won every single bottle.  All the VW and BTAC.

He told me to come to the store right at closing time with cash.

 

I never showed up and didn't answer his constant phone calls / voicemails / texts for the next week.

 According to you and some friends, some of the bottles are still sitting there in the case.  But he won't sell them.  I've sent several people to try to buy them.....even offering more than msrp.

I suppose if you offered him full black market price, he'd probably sell.

 

The point is that:

1. The "manager" wouldn't give me his name and would never meet me face to face.  So I'm not sure how many employees actually work there.  But he swore he wasn't the guy who checked me out the nights I made my purchases (it was always the same tall guy).

2. They (owners, clerks, managers, whatever) know what the bottle prices are on the black market, and basically want those prices for them.

3. The whole operation is shady.  They have a few other store locations with the same name, and I've been in those locations as well.  And they are somewhat shady too.

Not sure if the same family owns them all or what the situation is, but they are well educated on the bourbon game and know what they are doing.

 

That being said, they do have a great selection.  Prices used to be dirt cheap, but they have slowly been rising as they realize they can make more money. 

For example, blanton's was $47.99 last fall and when I sent a friend in a few months ago it was $59.99.

 

Obviously I don't shop there anymore because I don't want any negative interactions over the whole VW ordeal, but I'm fine with that.

I'd much rather support a place that doesn't play games with its customers.

That's the one!  That explains a little more as well.  They did have decent prices and selections on what was actually on their shelf (Blanton's was $52.99 I think that day and they had several).  Again I get having the Van Winkle stuff in there as a "display".  I get saving things for your "best" customers (which it sounds like they are actually NOT doing).  But having things like Baby Saz, EHT Single Barrel, OWA, even ETL in the display-only case?  Holding those out for "black market" pricing?  Yeah, I won't be going back.

[FacePlant]

MO Liquor Laws According to Wikipedia

 

This might explain why the LS is allowed to do this, and why other than pizz'n customers off, there is no price to pay for their actions.

[jeffrey r]

That's quite the story there, 0895.  I presume that what these guys do is technically legal, and they are free to price their liquors at whatever price they choose.  But these shakedowns and such of customers are just bad policy, legal or otherwise.  I suppose that none of us here, and likely nobody else, is going to march on their state capitols arguing for cheaper bourbon and more rights for liquor store customers.  But you would hope that some state liquor authorities would have some knowledge about the kind of stuff that is going on with the gouging and shakedowns, and maybe do something about it.  I won't hold my breath though.

Edited October 31, 2016 by jeffrey r

[inf3st]

On 10/29/2016 at 11:07 AM, Hop said:

I can appreciate your practices and as someone who spent quite a bit of money in a store in East TN (West Knoxville) and drove 2-3 hours for it,  just buying "off the shelf" because the store had such a great selection of barrel selects, good prices, even better specials, after finding the store and buying well over $3k of products many times by the case with the majority being Bourbon and a little wine and champagne thrown in - there were two things that turned me off.  

 

The first was when they did their "lottery" they were charging secondary prices for everything they released, and in the lottery there was no accounting for the regulars they just got in line with everyone else - not that I would have purchased anyway due to the prices, I don't mind a little markup on hard to find specialty items but 3 times retail plus is out of line.  

 

The second is that this store seemed to just decide to turn off their focus on Bourbon and move to other things, why I don't know.  Their selection now is less than 1/3rd of where it was just 18 months ago and now instead of turning other bourbon lovers onto the store I give an honest review of what's happened.  

 

That said - based on your comments I wish your store was in East TN rather than West...

 

I honestly don't blame them for swapping their focus away from bourbon. When we first opened the store it wasn't so bad. Now it seems like the distributors have swapped from choosing who gets what ethically to a more political stand point. When I, as a retailer, have to jump through hoops to get a product it's no longer worth it. Don't get me wrong they aren't asking me to really do anything. But it sure as shit feels that way. Because they say they give you what you get based off of sales of certain other products when in reality that doesn't make that much of a difference.

 

In the liquor business, it's how you buy your product that makes you money. Not how you sell it. So If I'm not buying in bulk It's not much of a money maker. So it doesn't make sense to put a lot of effort into bourbon when it's so hard to buy. Also don't forget that most bourbons are a lot harder to get than they used to. Even stupid shit like Charter. It's been allocated for a year now and it's a friggin 2 year old. I love bourbon and it's my hobby just like anyone else's. But right there's just not much money in it unless you want to treat your regulars like crap and price gouge.

[lcpfratn]

 

I honestly don't blame them for swapping their focus away from bourbon. When we first opened the store it wasn't so bad. Now it seems like the distributors have swapped from choosing who gets what ethically to a more political stand point. When I, as a retailer, have to jump through hoops to get a product it's no longer worth it. Don't get me wrong they aren't asking me to really do anything. But it sure as shit feels that way. Because they say they give you what you get based off of sales of certain other products when in reality that doesn't make that much of a difference.

 

In the liquor business, it's how you buy your product that makes you money. Not how you sell it. So If I'm not buying in bulk It's not much of a money maker. So it doesn't make sense to put a lot of effort into bourbon when it's so hard to buy. Also don't forget that most bourbons are a lot harder to get than they used to. Even stupid shit like Charter. It's been allocated for a year now and it's a friggin 2 year old. I love bourbon and it's my hobby just like anyone else's. But right there's just not much money in it unless you want to treat your regulars like crap and price gouge.

I believe the distributors are basing allocations on their sales of other stuff to you, not what you have sold to your customers. So bulk purchases from the distributors benefit you with a lower price point which you can pass along to your customers if you want to and increase your allocation of allocated bourbons. Also, while Charter has been on allocation for who knows what reason, it's still not a 2 year old...it would have to state it on the bottle if it was. Of course it's not an 8 year old anymore either.

Where is your store in West Tennessee?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[inf3st]

1 minute ago, lcpfratn said:

I believe the distributors are basing allocations on their sales of other stuff to you, not what you have sold to your customers. So bulk purchases from the distributors benefit you with a lower price point which you can pass along to your customers if you want to and increase your allocation of allocated bourbons. Also, while Charter has been on allocation for who knows what reason, it's still not a 2 year old...it would have to state it on the bottle if it was.

 

They do and don't use your sales. For instance if they solely went by sales no allocations would make it out of Memphis. I'm in Lexington btw.  As far as old charter goes it is age stated imo. If you look here

it plainly says "gently matured for eight seasons".

[Clueby]

57 minutes ago, inf3st said:

 

They do and don't use your sales. For instance if they solely went by sales no allocations would make it out of Memphis. I'm in Lexington btw.  As far as old charter goes it is age stated imo. If you look here

it plainly says "gently matured for eight seasons".

Eight seasons would be two years, right?

[tanstaafl2]

50 minutes ago, inf3st said:

 

They do and don't use your sales. For instance if they solely went by sales no allocations would make it out of Memphis. I'm in Lexington btw.  As far as old charter goes it is age stated imo. If you look here

it plainly says "gently matured for eight seasons".

 

"Seasons" has no legal meaning that I am aware of but it seems like in the past at least there were traditionally two broadly defined "seasons" for distilleries, Spring and Fall (BTAC and PVW used to be released twice year, once each "season" in the spring and fall). So that suggests it is probably about a 4 or so year old (and therefore doesn't require an age statement) and not an 8 or 2 year old. The use of "eight seasons" is probably just another legal PR deception on the part of Sazerac, kind of like leaving a meaningless 6 on the VOB label or JD's "Old No. 7" BS by Brown-Foreman among many others. That probably makes more sense at least to me than being a 2yo. But only Sazerac knows for sure and that aren't saying as far as I know.

[inf3st]

Yes sir.

 

The big kicker is weather or not matured is considered the same thing as "age". But as far as my concern it says 2 year old.

Edited October 31, 2016 by inf3st

[fishnbowljoe]

Part of this is beginning to make sense to me now. FWIW, I've mentioned this before, but like I said, it kinda makes sense now.

 

A number of years ago, (right before the "boom") there was a shake up in the distributors around where I live. One distributor bought out another, and another distributor let all their tenured salesmen go. It seemed regularly stocked products were starting to get a little harder to find. I asked a few store owners what was going on. Without coming right out and saying it, I got the message that they were kinda being held hostage. They had to buy x number of cases of different products just to get products they normally carried. As far as the one distributor letting all their "good ole' boys" go, they hired younger reps, and any relationships that store owners had cultivated with the old guard over the years fell by the wayside. The new guys play it pretty close to the vest, and doing favors for long time accounts doesn't seem to be a part of the game plan any more. This all leads me to believe that some distributors possibly saw the "boom" coming. After all, even though they might have had plenty of stocks in their warehouses, maybe they started seeing a slow down in the products they were getting in. Then again, maybe they were forewarned about the "boom" before it became general knowledge.   Things that make you go "huh". 

 

Cheers! Joe

 

 

[Clueby]

1 hour ago, Clueby said:

Eight seasons would be two years, right?

Insert sarcasm font here.

[PaulO]

The story from 0895 makes total sense to me.  If this store has LE bottles for their best customers, why are the bottles just sitting around?  My impression is a legit store calls customer on the phone as soon as item comes in.  Customer rushes their behind down there first chance they get.

I've suspected for some time that most of what gets "flipped" gets diverted similar to what we read above.

[flahute]

6 hours ago, inf3st said:

Yes sir.

 

The big kicker is weather or not matured is considered the same thing as "age". But as far as my concern it says 2 year old.

Have you had it? It certainly doesn't taste two years old to me. The word straight is on the label which means it's a minimum of 4 years old without an age statement on the bottle. "Seasons" is not a legal definition as noted by Bruce above. The quote used to say "8 years" so when they dropped the age statement the 8 became a numeral only and years became seasons.