What Determines Taste and Character?

[tdelling]

> But, Jimmy Russell can not take 100 barrels of Evan Williams distillate and make

> Wild Turkey Russell's Reserve by selecting barrels, warehouses, locations in the

> warehouse or aging.

The mashbills for the two bourbons you mention are (according to Regan&Regan)

identical. WT is aged in barrels with a #4 char. EW is aged in barrels with

a #3 char.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you couldn't tell the real Russell's

Reserve from a simulated Russell's Reserve made by taking 100 barrels'

worth of EW distillate, aging them in #4 char barrels, and allowing me

to choose the 3 out of 100 that I want.

Tim Dellinger

[cowdery]

First question: bourbons taste different, and have particular taste profiles, because the distillers want them to. They identify the profile they want and then combine barrels with different characteristics to achieve it, comparing the result to reference samples from previous batches.

Second question: Did I say "aging"? No, I said "maturity." Would you deny that Jim Beam white and Knob Creek, which use the same yeast and mashbill, taste significantly different? The difference is four years in wood versus nine years in wood.

[cowdery]

It's selection first and, if necessary, marrying. If they select successfully, they don't have to do any fiddling to match the reference sample. If the result isn't quite there, they add more of whatever quality the batch needs.

[jimbo]

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you couldn't tell the real Russell's Reserve from a simulated Russell's Reserve made by taking 100 barrels'

worth of EW distillate, aging them in #4 char barrels, and allowing me to choose the 3 out of 100 that I want.

Tim Dellinger

I don't think you could. I think the Evan Williams distillate is so different from Wild Turkey that anyone would be able to tell that the barrels you selected were Evan Williams, not Wild Turkey.

Second question: Did I say "aging"? No, I said "maturity." Would you deny that Jim Beam white and Knob Creek, which use the same yeast and mashbill, taste significantly different? The difference is four years in wood versus nine years in wood.

I have never tasted Jim Beam White, but I have tasted Jim Beam Black, Knob Creek, Booker's and Basil Hayden's. Yes, they are all different, but not as different as Wild Turkey Russell's Reserve and Knob Creek. There is a family resemblance among the Jim Beam expressions. I just finished a side by side with Booker's and Jim Beam Black. The flavors are similar, but the overall character is very different. I think mostly because of the difference in alcohol content.

Regards, jimbo

[jimbo]

Okay but many distillers will tell us that two barrels of the same whiskey, even standing side by side, will taste noticeably different. The reason must be differences in the wood. Maybe one barrel was made from 20 year old oak from Michigan, maybe another from 50 year old oak from Arkansas. Or the age may be similar but the origin different, or the origin and age the same but the porosity different, and so it goes..

In terms of the Bourbon of one house differing from that of another, we see the phenomenon in brewing too. Each house has its own type of equipment, mashbill, yeast (very important), water (although I'm with Chuck that this is a lesser factor), and "microbrial" environment. Yeasts for example become habituated in a particular environment to act a certain way.

And so, although (as I did recently) one can sample whiskey from three different bottles of Woodford Reserve and find them quite different although clearly of the same family, one can identify kinship between bourbons of different houses but (due to the factors listed) it is a relationship of greater degree. And the reasons essentially relate to the white dog and how it is made, I agree with Chuck again that aging in charred barrels will be the most common, or uniform, link amongst the distillers. The differences must be found in the sequence of processes that produce the new make spirit. Thus, it is good to hear that Laphroig new make tastes a lot like Laph that is 10 years old. The imporant thing is why both differ greatly from a Macallan. Although, anyone who has tasted Macallan from a merchant that was not aged in a sherry cask (e.g. Hart's) will see it is a different article from The Macallan which famously is aged in 100% sherry wood. This proves Chuck's point in a different way because the Scots age whisky, even the same kind, differently: some in ex-American bourbon wood, some in first-fill sherry wood, some in second fill sherry, new oak, etc. In America, it is charred new oak all the way for Bourbon - and glory be..

Gary

Gary, I think you and I are on the same page. Wood selection, location and age all have an impact on flavor and result in differences between family members. But wood selection, location and age can't transform distillate from family into another family.

The Scottish practice of using sherry barrels and now other "flavored" barrels adds a whole other dimension. I am suspicious about the practice. I suspect that they select very "juicy" barrels. As in a few gallons of liquid still in the barrels.

Regards, jimbo

[SteveZZZ]

Jimbo, I don't think anyone disagrees with you that aging is not going to change scotch into cognac, a rye into a wheater, or even Beam whiskey into Wild Turkey. On the other hand, there is no doubt whatsoever that aging a spirit can still make a significant difference in its final taste. Anyone who has ever compared Wild Turkey 12 with Russel's Reserve would be absolutely sure of it, within one taste. It's not subtle. Yes, you can tell they're both Wild Turkey. But while one is good, the other is truly exceptional. Two years in a barrel alone cannot sufficiently explain the differences in taste. The only logical conclusion is that some barrels do age better than others.

I've always felt that the specific whiskey, the specific wood, The climate and location the barrel is stored in, and the time the whiskey is aged all interact to determine the final product. Sometimes, just by dumb luck, part of a batch of white dog goes into barrels that are just right for it. And, by luck again, one or two of those barrels are put in just the right location in the warehouse to complement their characteristics. Some of the whiskey that gets barrelled will age fast, or have less potential to improve with age. Some of them, due to perfect conditions, have the potential to improve vastly over the years. In the hands of a good master distiller, these barrels of bourbon will be put to their best use, from the majority of average barrels that go into Ancient Age, to the precious few that become Stagg.

Steve

[jimbo]

Jimbo, I don't think anyone disagrees with you that aging is not going to change scotch into cognac, a rye into a wheater, or even Beam whiskey into Wild Turkey. On the other hand, there is no doubt whatsoever that aging a spirit can still make a significant difference in its final taste. Anyone who has ever compared Wild Turkey 12 with Russel's Reserve would be absolutely sure of it, within one taste. It's not subtle. Yes, you can tell they're both Wild Turkey. But while one is good, the other is truly exceptional. Two years in a barrel alone cannot sufficiently explain the differences in taste. The only logical conclusion is that some barrels do age better than others.

Well, it seems to me that some here think any distillate can be turned into any expression just by wood selection, location and aging. I maintain that Wild Turkey distillate can end as 101 or Russell's Reserve through wood selection, location, age and luck, but that Evan Williams distillate can never become any Wild Turkey expression.

I've always felt that the specific whiskey, the specific wood, The climate and location the barrel is stored in, and the time the whiskey is aged all interact to determine the final product. Sometimes, just by dumb luck, part of a batch of white dog goes into barrels that are just right for it. And, by luck again, one or two of those barrels are put in just the right location in the warehouse to complement their characteristics. Some of the whiskey that gets barrelled will age fast, or have less potential to improve with age. Some of them, due to perfect conditions, have the potential to improve vastly over the years. In the hands of a good master distiller, these barrels of bourbon will be put to their best use, from the majority of average barrels that go into Ancient Age, to the precious few that become Stagg.

Steve

I agree. I imagine that someone like Jimmy Russell who has tasted thousands of barrels of all ages from all warehouse locations could sample a dram and tell you where it came from, how old it was and even who the stillman was that distilled it.

Regards, jimbo

[jimbo]

The terms "bourbon" and "Tennessee Whiskey" describe a whiskey made primarily from corn, but not exclusively. A small amount of barley malt is used (about 10% of the mash) to aid the conversion of starch into sugar, and either rye or wheat is added for flavor.

The ratio of this flavor grain to the corn, and the type of flavor grain used, accounts for most of the taste variation among the different bourbon brands. Wild Turkey, Old Grand-Dad, Old Forester, most United brands, and all of the Heaven Hill brands have a distinctive rye flavor that indicates rye may be as much as 25% of the mash. Jim Beam is an example of a bourbon that uses rye, but not very much (only about 13% of the mash). Maker's Mark and the remaining United brands (Old Fitzgerald, Old Weller and Rebel Yell) use wheat instead of rye.

I wonder who said that?

Regards, jimbo

[Paradox]

This thread has outlived its original intent and gone way too astray. For this reason, and the fact that this board is an inappropriate venue for a pissing contest, this thread has been locked.