Four Roses Single Barrel Poor Consistency?

[paradoxical3]

First post, but I have been lurking here for a couple of years.  Four Roses has long been my favorite distillery - visiting them on the Bourbon Trail is what got me into bourbon.  It was love from the first sip; at first small batch, and then single barrel as my experience level grew.  I have been lucky enough to snag a few of their limited editions (all fantastic), and I often enjoy store picks since I am lucky enough to live near Party Source in KY.  

As someone who has gone through a significant amount of the standard 4rsb over the last couple of years, I am of the firm belief that their consistency has taken a turn for the worse.  I understand that with a single barrel bourbon there will always be some variation, but I have had numerous bottles over the last six months that just taste off to me (corn dominant, little to no nose, etc).  None of the familiar caramel and spice that I have associated with the bourbon. 

I did a blind tasting with a friend the other day.  We had:

Smooth Ambler Old Scout 10yr 
Smooth Ambler Old Scout Single Barrel 10yr 
Smooth Ambler American Whiskey
4 Roses Single Barrel (new bottle)
Boone County 10yr small batch
Heaven Hill 6 year (Green label)
Angels Envy

All of the bourbons were within 5 points proof of each other (highest 50%, lowest 45%) to minimize differences related to alcohol content.

The results were a bit surprising.  I was able to pick all three Smooth Ambler products blind, and the 10yr low rye was the overall winner by a mile.  But what really surprised me was that both my friend and I chose the 4 Roses Single Barrel as not just last place, but as borderline "undrinkable."  

We then compared the new 4rsb bottle to a 1yr old bottle my friend has had on the shelf.  The old bottle was outstanding and exactly as I remember it, and it was significantly darker in color.  Compared to the new bottle, it looks as if the old 4rsb had been aged an additional several years.  Both my friend and I were also able to blindly identify the old vs. new 4rsb, even with a third control bourbon added.  

Has anyone else noticed a reduction in quality with new 4RSB bottles?  I understand this was just one bottle, but I feel like this has been an unfortunate trend lately.

PS:  The Heaven Hill punched way above it's weight, coming in 3rd place behind the two 10yr Smooth Amblers (and tied with the Boone County, which also surprised me).  But I think we all knew that already!

Edited May 14, 2017 by paradoxical3

[lcpfratn]

I love Four Roses when my palate is in the mood for it and hate it when it is not. And I'm talking about different experiences with the same bottles. I think I have experienced this divergence with Four Roses more than any other bourbon. There have literally been times when I'd wonder what was going on with my taste buds some nights because I've even poured it out and gone to something else. Then a month or so later I go back to it and I go wow! The nose is so wonderful and this tastes So Good and have several more pours. Maybe you were just experiencing a bad palate night for a Four Roses Single Barrel regular release.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Paddy]

Sadly, you are experiencing an unfortunate result of the 'boom'.  Younger distillate going into the standard single barrel is going to be the first noticeable deviation from the profile/standard we have all known and held dear to our hearts. 

 

It is a real issue that some of us here have been aware of for the past 1-2 years.  For obvious reasons, any deviations to the small batch and yellow label will be much less noticeable.   

[mbroo5880i]

16 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Sadly, you are experiencing an unfortunate result of the 'boom'.  Younger distillate going into the standard single barrel is going to be the first noticeable deviation from the profile/standard we have all known and held dear to our hearts. 

 

It is a real issue that some of us here have been aware of for the past 1-2 years.  For obvious reasons, any deviations to the small batch and yellow label will be much less noticeable.   

 

This.  Palate variability may be a factor but the brand has dropped off as they move to younger distillate.  FRSiB used to always be a consistent product, even as a single barrel.  Now, you don't know what you are getting until you open the bottle.

 

[lcpfratn]

 
This.  Palate variability may be a factor but the brand has dropped off as they move to younger distillate.  FRSiB used to always be a consistent product, even as a single barrel.  Now, you don't know what you are getting until you open the bottle.
 

Private Select single barrels that you get to taste before you buy, which are plentiful in my area, are the answer to that problem. However, I still have times when Four Roses tastes fantastic to me, and other times that it is barely tolerable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paradoxical3]

Are the private select bottles you buy barrel strength?  The problem with those is that they run about double with a standard 4rsib does in my area.  They are fantastic though, and usually well worth it depending on which mashbills you like.

Edited May 15, 2017 by paradoxical3

[Paddy]

PS barrels are available for the standard 100 proof offering as well as the barrel strength non-standard recipes.  Most of what is seen nationwide is the barrel strength non-standard recipes.  There is an ongoing issue with these as well, as the program is under duress due to the high demand.  That is why the prices have increased, while the age of the available barrels continue to decline.   

[lcpfratn]

Are the private select bottles you buy barrel strength?  The problem with those is that they run about double with a standard 4rsib does in my area.  They are fantastic though, and usually well worth it depending on which mashbills you like.

I used to see a lot more barrel strength private selections, many of which are still sitting on shelves because the price is too high and/or the chosen mashbill was not well received. I passed on a PS barrel proof at a store last year because I felt it was overpriced and a poor selection based on my tasting, but I probably should taste it again someday since it may have been a bad palate day for Four Roses. Anyway, that store is still sitting on a bunch of bottles almost a year later. Lately, I've been seeing a lot of new standard mashbill OBSV PS single barrels at standard strength of 100 proof. The age has been between 7 and 8 years. They've been very good and priced in the mid to high $30 range so I have picked up some.

[flahute]

4 hours ago, Paddy said:

Sadly, you are experiencing an unfortunate result of the 'boom'.  Younger distillate going into the standard single barrel is going to be the first noticeable deviation from the profile/standard we have all known and held dear to our hearts. 

 

It is a real issue that some of us here have been aware of for the past 1-2 years.  For obvious reasons, any deviations to the small batch and yellow label will be much less noticeable.   

 

4 hours ago, mbroo5880i said:

 

This.  Palate variability may be a factor but the brand has dropped off as they move to younger distillate.  FRSiB used to always be a consistent product, even as a single barrel.  Now, you don't know what you are getting until you open the bottle.

 

Agree with both of you.

A couple years ago, 4RSiB was my #1 ranked everyday available bottle. Every one I purchased was great. Over the last year or so though, It's become highly variable and some are just not that great. It makes me very sad because 4R was the one distillery I could count on. I can't anymore. The PS barrels are still great and Small Batch is still good but I lament the passing of always reliable Single Barrel.

[tanstaafl2]

16 hours ago, Paddy said:

PS barrels are available for the standard 100 proof offering as well as the barrel strength non-standard recipes.  Most of what is seen nationwide is the barrel strength non-standard recipes.  There is an ongoing issue with these as well, as the program is under duress due to the high demand.  That is why the prices have increased, while the age of the available barrels continue to decline.   

 

For a couple of years FR had suspended their OBSV 100 proof barrel selection program and you could only get BP private selections of the various recipes depending on availability of each recipe. It is only just recently that they have revived the OBSV 100 proof private selections for stores. But they are at least back now! For the moment anyway.

[Flyfish]

21 hours ago, mbroo5880i said:

 

This.  Palate variability may be a factor but the brand has dropped off as they move to younger distillate.  FRSiB used to always be a consistent product, even as a single barrel.  Now, you don't know what you are getting until you open the bottle.

 

Thanks to you and others on this thread. I thought it was just something wrong with my palate. (It's always great to have something to blame rather than yourself.)

[mbroo5880i]

I have found myself drift more toward HMcK10 over the past few years.  The price is lower and the consistency is better.  I have had some stellar HMcK10 SiB over the past year.

 

 I would prefer to see FRSmB @ 100 proof for $30 (the current midpoint between FRSmB and FRSiB in Indy) replace the current FRSiB offering.  I would prefer the increased proof and consistency.

[paradoxical3]

I am glad I am not crazy in noticing this trend.  I had started to feel like I couldn't trust my own tastes.  But then when I was able to nail the blind tasting, I wondered if there was actually something wrong with the juice.  

I am pretty bummed out about the decline in quality.  I don't just really love the taste of the classic 4rsib, I have a soft spot for the brand since they introduced me to the hobby.  Have a lot of good memories of distillery tours, sharing it with friends and family, etc.  Hopefully in a few years once supply has met demand they can go back to longer aged distillate.  Until then, I think I will pass as there are better options for $35.  If you had told me I would have said that last sentence four years ago, I would have called you insane.  

It's just interesting as I find less of a decline with Elijah Craig 12 losing the age statement.  Is the old stuff better?  Yes, and verified via blind tasting.  Do I still enjoy the new stuff with no age statement?  Yes.  But I have gotten numerous bottles of 4rsib over the last six months that I just can't drink.

Edited May 16, 2017 by paradoxical3

[flahute]

Important to note here, without going into detail, that 4R are making changes to the entire process in the name of efficiency. I'm fearful for the future brand. We of course won't know until that future distillate has aged and is bottled but it will taste different than it currently does.

 

As for the current variation, in addition to it being bottled younger, the pressures on supply mean that lower quality barrels that would have gone into Yellow Label only are now being put into the single barrel. 

I have no first hand knowledge of the following assumption, but I also wonder if standards for quality control have lessened without Jim at the helm. He had more power and influence then those who remain.

[paradoxical3]

17 minutes ago, flahute said:

Important to note here, without going into detail, that

4R are making changes to the entire process in the name of efficiency. I'm fearful for the future brand. We of course won't know until that future distillate has aged and is bottled but it will taste different than it currently does.

Is this something you can't go into detail about because it is proprietary information?

 

Quote

As for the current variation, in addition to it being bottled younger, the pressures on supply mean that lower quality barrels that would have gone into Yellow Label only are now being put into the single barrel.

This I figured; it seems to be happening almost everywhere unfortunately.  
 

Quote

I have no first hand knowledge of the following assumption, but I also wonder if standards for quality control have lessened without Jim at the helm. He had more power and influence then those who remain.

I have to imagine that is the case.  I am not the only customer that would blindly follow and trust Jim.  

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by paradoxical3

[b1gcountry]

I have noticed a decline as well in the 4RSiB . I had a few archive samples and compared them to some newer bottles, and they were much different. This used to be my favorite bourbon. saos has replaced it, and now I just hope my stash of saos will last until the 4R quality improves back to normal.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[tigerlam92]

Agreed with what had been stated.

Just last week I helped with tasting a barrel selection for the 100 proof OBSV, three samples.

And my suggestion was to skip and that they tasted really young. Very immature all around, nose hardly anything with just a very slight hint of floral, harsh and imbalance taste and finish.

[kcgumbohead]

Interesting topic as 4R is rather dear to me for the same reasons several have noted above. The first inconsistency that drew my attention was actually Smb. The first bottle I had was stellar, a harmonious combination of those 4 recipes. I acquired and had a great deal of fun tasting through the 10 as private selections anf it was great to identify characteristics unique to those individual recipes that presented in the Smb. A later bottle, backed up with at least a couple distillery visits/tastings had the K's far more prevalent than the Os. I like the Ks but it aint what I am looking for in the Smb., it was very much out of balance to my tastes.

Last year at the distillery the sample finally swung back to what I had remembered from the early bottles. I opened another several months ago and it was on point, the 4 recipes rolling out in wave after wave of specific and complimentary flavors, a GOOD 4R Smb is something to behold. I have several and its Russian roulette what I will get when I open one, the current open may be the best yet so I am rationing that one.

 

On to SBs. When JR started joking about retiring I began accumulating SBs and the store select program was in full swing. At the tail end of that period I remember a local getting 2 barrels in (100p OBSV) one was so light in color it looked odd in the bottle from across the floor!! Turns out it was 7 yrs old, the clerk pointed to the other darker of the 2 and said "this is the one you want" I got neither. The closing of the store select program was a bit of a red flag and by that time I was ready to shut down the buying anyway. Based on the comments of many posters looks like that was a good move.

 

In an interview I cannot find anymore JR alluded to the fact that declining inventory necessitated the reduction of age from around 9 to 8yr for the SB. He said that the inclusion of younger stock would be gradual so as to not shock the "regulars" or something to that effect. From the posts here it would seem that we may have entered shocking territory.

 

I hesitate to use "quality" as I feel that term relates to the manufacturing process and with current methods quality may be at its highest in history for ALL distilleries. The profiles however are shifting as that quality distillate is aged less or barreled at a higher proof or... To me its the profile shifts that are the most troubling and the moves the distilleries are being forced to make in order to meet demand are having an impact 9 to 8 to who knows what will impact flavor just as EC12 to EC they are both of the same "quality" but due to aging differences and batch selection they naturally taste different

 

My hope is that this is the valley between peaks and once production finally catches up perhaps we will see a stabilization and resurgence of these profiles we all seem to think of so fondly. 4R and everyone else seem to be doing everything they can to keep the shelves stocked, it may take another 10yrs (my best guess) but eventually this will work itself out. Its a shame that none of the barrels rolled out for the selection an above poster tasted from were suitable. I was glad to hear that the store program resumed and with careful selection there will be gems no doubt but going forward its going to be tough to pull the rigger without tasting first.

 

Sorry for the long post but this is something I have been noticing, tasting and trying to insulate myself from for quite awhile. Again, interesting to hear of the experiences others are having. I am going to enjoy a pour from a 4RSB from a few years back tonight, Cheers all!!  

[jeffrey r]

I just found an email exchange that I had with Jim Rutledge back in January 2013.  That 2012/2013 holiday season, I came across stockpiles of FRSB gift sets that came with a bottle of FRSB and two nice FR rocks glasses.  The sets were under $30.  So I bought a few of the sets, and it turned out my sets had two similar barrels, 55-3L and 55-3M.  Both fantastic barrels as it turned out.  So I went back and bought a bunch more of the sets.  Anyway, I still have several of these bottles in the bunker, and still use all of my FR rocks glasses regularly. 

 

In this email exchange, Mr. Rutledge stated that these barrels "sat for nearly 9 years of aging".  And they taste like it.  Just delicious, tasty FRSB.  As has been said, there is just no way that the current bottles are 9 years old or thereabouts.  Fortunately, I still have those multiple bottles of FRSB around, similar to various other staples where the age and quality were simply better a few years ago.  Since then, one of my locals got in a barrel proof OBSV that is around 9 years old and is fantastic.

[fishnbowljoe]

2 hours ago, kcgumbohead said:

Sorry for the long post but this is something I have been noticing, tasting and trying to insulate myself from for quite awhile. 

 

No need to apologize Kevin. You posted your observations, and I believe they, along with Flahutes and others, are very pertinent to the topic of this thread.

 

It's been a while since I've had a FRSB, although I've almost pulled the trigger a number of times recently. This thread has got me to thinkin' though. I'm not sure if I want to continue to pass, or grab bottle to see if I can notice a difference too.  

 

Cheers! joe

[lcpfratn]

The PS SB OBSV 100 proof bottles that I've been seeing pop up in Memphis have all been in the 7 year and x months range. So, age is definitely younger. I've only been buying when I get to taste them before I buy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fishnbowljoe]

Something to think about, although it may be kind of a moot point. FR used to provide distillate for Bulleit. That is no longer the case, since supposedly their contract wasn't renewed. I wonder what the effect will be going forward? FR will have more of its own distillate for their own use now, but it still has to age. Right? (Hence my reference to this possibly being a moot point. )

 

Cheers! Joe

[ModestGlutton]

I would venture a guess that with the surge in it's popularity that they were producing and bottling sub par products. Hopefully they'll have reined it in the next couple of years.

 

The bottle I picked up was closer to what OP stated originally; I didn't much care for my bottle (when first opened), I would reach for SAOS but as time went on I've found that my bottle of 4RSB has become drinkable and I like it's more complex taste. I can only look forward what a good bottle of 4RSB would taste like.

Edited May 16, 2017 by ModestGlutton

[flahute]

57 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Something to think about, although it may be kind of a moot point. FR used to provide distillate for Bulleit. That is no longer the case, since supposedly their contract wasn't renewed. I wonder what the effect will be going forward? FR will have more of its own distillate for their own use now, but it still has to age. Right? (Hence my reference to this possibly being a moot point. )

 

Cheers! Joe

Their contract with Bulleit only ended something like 2 years ago (maybe 3) so none of that extra capacity is of age yet as you suggested. What they did for Bulleit was a rather significant percentage of their total capacity so they'll have a lot coming online down the road. Then later this summer, they'll double their capacity when the new still gets operational. The current pain will continue for some time.

[fishnbowljoe]

25 minutes ago, flahute said:

Their contract with Bulleit only ended something like 2 years ago (maybe 3) so none of that extra capacity is of age yet as you suggested. What they did for Bulleit was a rather significant percentage of their total capacity so they'll have a lot coming online down the road. Then later this summer, they'll double their capacity when the new still gets operational. The current pain will continue for some time.

 Thanks Steve.