Bottling lines for 750 vs. 700ml bottles

[Northern Bourbon]

Hi everyone!

 

My questions are for anyone who might have some insight in the bottling process of bourbon. The standard size in the US is 750ml and 700ml in Europe. Some export bottles explicitly say that they're bottled at the same plant as the domestic products. In these cases, are there separated bottling lines, one for each bottle size, or are the same lines reset and calibrated for bottling runs of different sizes?

 

In other cases (more often for NDP export products it seems) the bourbon is shipped overseas straight after maturing, watered down to proof and bottled in plants in the EU. What does this process look like? If CFR rules are to be followed in the EU as well, is "bottling" then considered a process outside of "production"?

 

And what's the reasoning between bottling in the USA then shipping, instead of shipping in tanks and then bottling in the EU?

 

Thanks in advance!

[0895]

Just a guess, but I think the "filling machine" can be set to a certain amount of  volume (ml).

 

Part of my reasoning for this is that bottles of the same type/brand can vary in thickness and shape somewhat, but the volume inside is pretty consistent.

 

For example, I recently took two High West 375ml bottles, one appeared to be more full as the whiskey traveled up the neck further than the other.

Upon closer inspection though, the bases of the bottles were quite different.  One base had more of an angle in the way the glass was blown.

 

For the sake of curiosity, I took both empties and put measured amounts of water into each bottle and the shapes of each bottle respectively made it appear as though one contained slightly more liquid than the other, even though I knew actual volume was the same.

 

So my answer is that each and every bottle probably has some slight variances, and those variances are noticeable through visual inspection of the level of whiskey, when in actuality, volume is a measured amount, that is consistent from bottle to bottle.

 

To answer your questions,

1.  I believe the filling machines can be set to whatever volume you want to fill, and bottles can be made to any "approximate" size.

2.  Cost is probably the number one factor in deciding on where to bottle.  If you're a business and one way is cheaper than the other, but the end result is the same, you'll probably pick the cheaper option.

3.  NDP's probably have to meet certain requirements to sell under their brand name.  I believe in the U.S., the whiskey needs to be physically on their property for at least a year to label it as your own.

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by 0895

[kevinbrink]

Anyone know how alcohol bottled in other countries is even shipped, my guess is that it would be tanked in some fashion before being shipped, in which case the container would also be less prone to loss than if Bottles or Barrels were shipped.

[TheOakMonster]

Depends. Certain bulk products are definitely shipped in tankers/tanks and bottled in the United States, including some wine. Imported flavored vodkas, such as Svedka and, I believe, Pinnacle often receive the flavoring additions in the United States. If you take the 1792 Barton Distiller tour they'll sometimes point out the "sugar shack" that stores flavoring. And the case boxes often list U.S. distillery/bottling locations.

 

Premium Scotch though, I imagine, is bottled in Scotland.  I'll also mention, that in our store we've received Bruichladich Single Malt shipped in 750 ml bottles but stuffed in 700 ml metal tubes.  Thought that was funny.

[Northern Bourbon]

On 2017-06-05 at 10:17 PM, 0895 said:

Just a guess, but I think the "filling machine" can be set to a certain amount of  volume (ml).

 

Part of my reasoning for this is that bottles of the same type/brand can vary in thickness and shape somewhat, but the volume inside is pretty consistent.

 

For example, I recently took two High West 375ml bottles, one appeared to be more full as the whiskey traveled up the neck further than the other.

Upon closer inspection though, the bases of the bottles were quite different.  One base had more of an angle in the way the glass was blown.

 

For the sake of curiosity, I took both empties and put measured amounts of water into each bottle and the shapes of each bottle respectively made it appear as though one contained slightly more liquid than the other, even though I knew actual volume was the same.

 

So my answer is that each and every bottle probably has some slight variances, and those variances are noticeable through visual inspection of the level of whiskey, when in actuality, volume is a measured amount, that is consistent from bottle to bottle.

 

To answer your questions,

1.  I believe the filling machines can be set to whatever volume you want to fill, and bottles can be made to any "approximate" size.

2.  Cost is probably the number one factor in deciding on where to bottle.  If you're a business and one way is cheaper than the other, but the end result is the same, you'll probably pick the cheaper option.

3.  NDP's probably have to meet certain requirements to sell under their brand name.  I believe in the U.S., the whiskey needs to be physically on their property for at least a year to label it as your own.

 

 

Being able to set filling machines to certain volumes sounds plausible. Regarding answer nr. 2: it would be really interesting to hear what is the most common: bottling EU 700ml bottles in the US then ship them overseas, or ship in tanks and bottle them somewhere in the EU. I've been asking around if the latter is within regulations, but haven't got a straight answer back.

[Northern Bourbon]

On 2017-06-05 at 10:24 PM, kevinbrink said:

Anyone know how alcohol bottled in other countries is even shipped, my guess is that it would be tanked in some fashion before being shipped, in which case the container would also be less prone to loss than if Bottles or Barrels were shipped.

 

In the case of bourbon in the EU, it appears that certain "bottom shelf" non-US whiskeys are distilled and aged in the US, then shipped in bulk to the EU for bottling (Netherlands and Germany both have bottling plants that do this it seems). I can't seem to get answers about the big brands though.

[fishnbowljoe]

Something else to take into consideration is the actual bottle size. To be honest, I'm not sure if bottling machines and lines can be adjusted for different sized bottles. I'd guess that if the size doesn't vary a whole lot, they could possibly be adjusted. I'd also venture another guess and say that switching from 750's to 1.75's probably wouldn't work. Just my thoughts.

 

Joe

[kevinbrink]

20 hours ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Something else to take into consideration is the actual bottle size. To be honest, I'm not sure if bottling machines and lines can be adjusted for different sized bottles. I'd guess that if the size doesn't vary a whole lot, they could possibly be adjusted. I'd also venture another guess and say that switching from 750's to 1.75's probably wouldn't work. Just my thoughts.

 

Joe

I don't know much about spirits bottling, however I do know for beer there are bottling lines that can be set both for 12 oz bottles and 750ml bottles. I would assume the same holds true for spirits. I would also venture a guess that for some of the more irregularly shaped bottles there is still considerable hand filling of bottles going on.  Nothing really to validate this statement, just a suspicion.  

[Northern Bourbon]

Reading the Economic Impact Study for 2017 from the KDA website, I found this regarding bourbon export:

 

Quote

Interestingly, according to the data reported by the Distilled Spirits Council, more than half of international shipments of Bourbon and Tennessee whiskey are in bulk rather than bottled. Some markets prefer bulk product because of bottle size differences, such as exist between the U.S. and European Union. Other markets have different labeling standards. Indeed, bulk shipments dominate exports to the farthest large importers like Australia and New Zealand. Presumably it is more cost effective to bottle the product close to consumers than to pay the 15 freight on the bottles shipped around the world. Bulk exports dominate the shipments to Spain and Netherlands as well.

 

[tanstaafl2]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 6:09 PM, fishnbowljoe said:

Something else to take into consideration is the actual bottle size. To be honest, I'm not sure if bottling machines and lines can be adjusted for different sized bottles. I'd guess that if the size doesn't vary a whole lot, they could possibly be adjusted. I'd also venture another guess and say that switching from 750's to 1.75's probably wouldn't work. Just my thoughts.

 

Joe

 

I have seen a few bottles that appear to be identical in both shape and fill whether they are filled to 750 or 700ml which seemed odd. Until you look at the bottom and notice that the punt (the "dimple" in the bottom of the bottle) was pushed in more on the 700 ml bottle thus making the fill appear the same. Don't know how common that is and at the moment I can't recall what bottle it was where I discovered that. Green/Yellow Spot or another Midleton bottle from the EU and the US perhaps.

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by tanstaafl2

[tsangster]

Not bourbon but we have a fill line capable of filling 3cc vials and 10cc vials with a few change-over parts and fill volume adjustment on the computer.  Have another line capable of filling 25cc - 250cc plastic bottles.  

 

On the tour of the Heaven Hill bottling facility I'm fairly certain I saw change-over type parts similar to those that we use.  I suspect they can run bottles of different shapes, sizes and fill volumes on the same line.