Future of Bottled in Bond?

[cdcdguy]

Started this topic awhile back. With Old Fitz and HH6BIB ending, is this a trend? Can the industry now easily sell higher end stuff? Do you see others like JTS, Dant, VOB going upscale or just ending? Will EW age their BIB longer to replace HH6? I sure hope these good, down priced BIB's aren't going away anytime soon.

[kevinbrink]

15 minutes ago, cdcdguy said:

Started this topic awhile back. With Old Fitz and HH6BIB ending, is this a trend? Can the industry now easily sell higher end stuff? Do you see others like JTS, Dant, VOB going upscale or just ending? Will EW age their BIB longer to replace HH6? I sure hope these good, down priced BIB's aren't going away anytime soon.

I think it would be easy for HH to pull the plug on a bunch of their BIB labels and TBT while they all taste a little different I often wonder if they are bottled to a profile or if batch variation is just the nature of BIB bourbons. I wouldn't personally mind seeing a few fade away if it it lead to a more premium 6-8 yr BIB under one of their labels even if they priced between $20-$30. 

[Mako254]

6 minutes ago, kevinbrink said:

I think it would be easy for HH to pull the plug on a bunch of their BIB labels and TBT while they all taste a little different I often wonder if they are bottled to a profile or if batch variation is just the nature of BIB bourbons. I wouldn't personally mind seeing a few fade away if it it lead to a more premium 6-8 yr BIB under one of their labels even if they priced between $20-$30. 

 

Bernie Lubbers mentioned on a podcast recently that the ‘heritage’ HH BiBs are all essentially the same juice just in different bottles. I’d imagine it is 4-5 year juice. 

[mosugoji64]

7 hours ago, Mako254 said:

 

Bernie Lubbers mentioned on a podcast recently that the ‘heritage’ HH BiBs are all essentially the same juice just in different bottles. I’d imagine it is 4-5 year juice. 

 

All HH rye-recipe bourbon is "the same juice" for what it's worth, but the flavor profiles are definitely different. Sounds like Bernie may be helping to pave the way for some of these labels to bid us a fond farewell. Sad. As I've mentioned in other threads, I LOVE HH bonded bourbons and find them all to be different enough to keep them all in rotation. Looks like I know what I'll be stocking up on next time we head east!

[cdcdguy]

I guess I am going to start stocking up big time. I love the basic-ness of these low priced BIBs. 10 bucks for JTS? Unreal. Complex, no. Would a 6 to 8 year BIB be better? Probably but not at double or triple the cost.

[kevinbrink]

30 minutes ago, cdcdguy said:

I guess I am going to start stocking up big time. I love the basic-ness of these low priced BIBs. 10 bucks for JTS? Unreal. Complex, no. Would a 6 to 8 year BIB be better? Probably but not at double or triple the cost.

Hopefully that's always a choice we all have. Hard to imagine EWBIB going away, for context though at least where I am HH BIB brands are the only ones (Dant & EW BIB) that are sub $20 every other major producer that has a BIB is on the shelf between the low $20's and $40 with Beam and OGD at the low end and CEHT at the high end. To further play devils advocate if I was HH and I saw BT/Saz moving plenty of CEHT BIB for between $30 and $40 I would say what the hell am I doing pricing my bourbon for a third of the price. At the prices that HH BIB's sell for enthusiasts look at them as values while your average consumer sees them as rotgut. Throw a fancier label on and stick it in a tube and it's premium. 

[cdcdguy]

39 minutes ago, kevinbrink said:

Hopefully that's always a choice we all have. Hard to imagine EWBIB going away, for context though at least where I am HH BIB brands are the only ones (Dant & EW BIB) that are sub $20 every other major producer that has a BIB is on the shelf between the low $20's and $40 with Beam and OGD at the low end and CEHT at the high end. To further play devils advocate if I was HH and I saw BT/Saz moving plenty of CEHT BIB for between $30 and $40 I would say what the hell am I doing pricing my bourbon for a third of the price. At the prices that HH BIB's sell for enthusiasts look at them as values while your average consumer sees them as rotgut. Throw a fancier label on and stick it in a tube and it's premium. 

Sound logic. I always wondered how you could keep a barrel in a warehouse 4 years, plus the cost to make, then send to retail and charge 10 to 15 bucks?  How much profit could you really make? I get EWBIB by the case for 11 per bottle. Amazing for that price. And the consumer seeing these as rotgut are clearly wrong. 

 

Would it it be easier to just raise prices a bit than cancel these?

[kevinbrink]

4 hours ago, cdcdguy said:

Sound logic. I always wondered how you could keep a barrel in a warehouse 4 years, plus the cost to make, then send to retail and charge 10 to 15 bucks?  How much profit could you really make? I get EWBIB by the case for 11 per bottle. Amazing for that price. And the consumer seeing these as rotgut are clearly wrong. 

 

Would it it be easier to just raise prices a bit than cancel these?

Yeah pure speculation on my part but it's definitely not easier to raise prices as generally that creates backlash from consumers where as new products are typically welcomed especially if sell a quality product in nice packaging. 

[PaulO]

HH has $30 or so HMcK 10 year BIB.

 

No bragging, but I bet I could identify all their currently available NAS BIB brands in a blind tasting.

 

Around Indy, we have: EW, Dant, JTS Brown, and VOB for BIB value brands.

I can get Mellow Corn too.

 

Old Overholt BIB was a pleasant surprise.  

[cdcdguy]

12 hours ago, PaulO said:

HH has $30 or so HMcK 10 year BIB.

 

No bragging, but I bet I could identify all their currently available NAS BIB brands in a blind tasting.

 

Around Indy, we have: EW, Dant, JTS Brown, and VOB for BIB value brands.

I can get Mellow Corn too.

 

Old Overholt BIB was a pleasant surprise.  

Tell me more about Old Overholt BIB. I have never picked it up. Mellow Corn is very basic, with not a lot of corn flavor, but I still find myself picking that one up too. 

[kevinbrink]

4 minutes ago, cdcdguy said:

Tell me more about Old Overholt BIB. I have never picked it up. Mellow Corn is very basic, with not a lot of corn flavor, but I still find myself picking that one up too. 

It tastes like the middle ground between JB Rye 90 proof and KC Rye to me, I like it but would probably spend the extra 5 buck for the KC.

[BottledInBond]

20 hours ago, kevinbrink said:

Yeah pure speculation on my part but it's definitely not easier to raise prices as generally that creates backlash from consumers where as new products are typically welcomed especially if sell a quality product in nice packaging. 

See Larceny introduction as the example here with Old Fitz Prime as the victim label killed off essentially

[smokinjoe]

2 hours ago, BottledInBond said:

See Larceny introduction as the example here with Old Fitz Prime as the victim label killed off essentially

Yeah, but Prime was shite.  

 

[Harry in WashDC]

10 hours ago, cdcdguy said:

Tell me more about Old Overholt BIB. I have never picked it up. Mellow Corn is very basic, with not a lot of corn flavor, but I still find myself picking that one up too. 

 

[BottledInBond]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Yeah, but Prime was shite.  

 

Well, Larceny did get those 2 extra proof points in addition to the fancier packaging so there’s that. It’s a good example of redirecting barrels from one product to another especially since it’s within Heaven Hill which is where the convo was discussing with their cheap BIBs. I doubt HH would kill off their traditional recipe BIBs just to create a new bourbon label. The reality is if they want to charge more for more barrels they could just age them longer and sell them in McKenna or put them into Elijah Craig, etc. Of course not all barrels will fit those profiles but they could still just blend the rest into EWB and not lose any money per bottle, but still simplify their product line. I think it’s fun that they still do the BIBs but it can’t be much of a profit contributor for them overall

[smokinjoe]

41 minutes ago, BottledInBond said:

Well, Larceny did get those 2 extra proof points in addition to the fancier packaging so there’s that. It’s a good example of redirecting barrels from one product to another especially since it’s within Heaven Hill which is where the convo was discussing with their cheap BIBs. I doubt HH would kill off their traditional recipe BIBs just to create a new bourbon label. The reality is if they want to charge more for more barrels they could just age them longer and sell them in McKenna or put them into Elijah Craig, etc. Of course not all barrels will fit those profiles but they could still just blend the rest into EWB and not lose any money per bottle, but still simplify their product line. I think it’s fun that they still do the BIBs but it can’t be much of a profit contributor for them overall

I’m pretty sure Prime was 80 proof when discontinued, most likely barely 4 years old, and an extremely weak sales performer and affront to the great legacy of the Old Fitzgerald name.  Indeed, those barrels were then mixed in with older barrels to create a very fine Larceny, while still keeping an offering that was and continues to be economically priced.  Rather than a “victim” of Larceny’s introduction, it was more like a mercy killing.  I’m guessing HH will cull their BIB herd, and up market the whiskey in some way, nonetheless.

[BottledInBond]

14 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

I’m pretty sure Prime was 80 proof when discontinued, most likely barely 4 years old, and an extremely weak sales performer and affront to the great legacy of the Old Fitzgerald name.  Indeed, those barrels were then mixed in with older barrels to create a very fine Larceny, while still keeping an offering that was and continues to be economically priced.  Rather than a “victim” of Larceny’s introduction, it was more like a mercy killing.  I’m guessing HH will cull their BIB herd, and up market the whiskey in some way, nonetheless.

Yeah Prime was bottled at multiple proofs. There was some 86 roof versions in there as well. I certainly didn’t love it and I think Larceny is a fine product. It’s capitalism though so if the momentum continues I’m sure they will up market the current BIB juice in some way. For now, I’m having a fire in the fireplace while watching a movie with my boys and drinking a high class Dant Bib & Coke. Cheers!

[Paddy]

^^^^My late father in law always gave cases of Old Fitz Prime away every year at Christmas.  Due to fond memories, I'm still tempted to pick up a 'prime' every time I see it on the shelf.  However, for reasons already stated, I don't. 

 

Back in the day, the old SW prime was some pretty darn good bottom shelf bourbon!

[cdcdguy]

4 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

 

Thanks Harry.

[cdcdguy]

2 hours ago, Paddy said:

^^^^My late father in law always gave cases of Old Fitz Prime away every year at Christmas.  Due to fond memories, I'm still tempted to pick up a 'prime' every time I see it on the shelf.  However, for reasons already stated, I don't. 

 

Back in the day, the old SW prime was some pretty darn good bottom shelf bourbon!

Maybe you should pick up some prime. While nothing special at all, it's still a decent bottom shelffer.

[CUfan99]

On 10/4/2018 at 2:43 PM, kevinbrink said:

Hopefully that's always a choice we all have. Hard to imagine EWBIB going away, for context though at least where I am HH BIB brands are the only ones (Dant & EW BIB) that are sub $20 every other major producer that has a BIB is on the shelf between the low $20's and $40 with Beam and OGD at the low end and CEHT at the high end. To further play devils advocate if I was HH and I saw BT/Saz moving plenty of CEHT BIB for between $30 and $40 I would say what the hell am I doing pricing my bourbon for a third of the price. At the prices that HH BIB's sell for enthusiasts look at them as values while your average consumer sees them as rotgut. Throw a fancier label on and stick it in a tube and it's premium. 

I’m far from a Saz apologist but the CEHT BIB is the better product. Around me OGD BIB is $30 for a liter so not as far away from CEHT as it once was in price, but I treat the OGD as a daily drinker and the CEHT as more of a special pour; not just because of expense but taste. If EW BIB fancied up the packaging and tried to sell for $30 a liter I for sure wouldn’t be a buyer but as you suggest, in this market it would sell. 

[kevinbrink]

2 hours ago, CUfan99 said:

I’m far from a Saz apologist but the CEHT BIB is the better product. Around me OGD BIB is $30 for a liter so not as far away from CEHT as it once was in price, but I treat the OGD as a daily drinker and the CEHT as more of a special pour; not just because of expense but taste. If EW BIB fancied up the packaging and tried to sell for $30 a liter I for sure wouldn’t be a buyer but as you suggest, in this market it would sell. 

I agree to some degree but I probably prefer OE 7 101, FC 6 101 & HH 6 BIB to CEHT and they are all off the market now, OE may not have been entirely sourced from HH but regardless by taking those products off the market it certainly opens up a segment of the market to bring a similar product back at a more premium price but to do that it would probably make sense to stop selling some of the lower priced BIB's to fill bottles with later on. Larceny has been around for a bunch of years now but it only hit my state and a number of others last year around the same time the Old Fitz stuff started to disappear. 

[kaiserhog]

I hope EW BiB never is gussied up with new packaging and a cork just raise the price.  It has a loyal following because it is such a great value.  It is my understanding that the whiskey in it is 5 years old.  Heaven Hill products sell because of who they are and they are comfortable in their own skin.

Edited October 15, 2018 by kaiserhog

[cdcdguy]

33 minutes ago, kaiserhog said:

I hope EW BiB never is gussied up with new packaging and a cork just raise the price.  It has a loyal following because it is such a great value.  It is my understanding that the whiskey in it is 5 years old.  Heaven Hill products sell because of who they are and they are comfortable in their own skin.

I buy EWBIB by the case. If it is 5  years old, why not age it one more year, slap a 6 year label on it. You can raise the price to $20 and I will still by it by the case. Just make it widely available

 

[kaiserhog]

8 hours ago, cdcdguy said:

I buy EWBIB by the case. If it is 5  years old, why not age it one more year, slap a 6 year label on it. You can raise the price to $20 and I will still by it by the case. Just make it widely available

 

Would an extra year of age change the flavor profile?  It would be interesting.  They could age it another 3 years and create a whole new product and sell it for $40 plus.