Are we becoming accustomed to inferior whiskey ?

[The Black Tot]

12 hours ago, dad-proof said:

While we can't go back to the good ol' days, we are living in tomorrow's good ol' days. Changes will most certainly come to brands, master distillers, wood (barrel) quality, aging, and/or industry consolidation that will have us scrambling then mourning for the things that are on the shelf today. (RIP HH6.)  

This is only true for a system in constant decline.

 

Not one in which three or four times the production is set to hit maturity in 5-7 years. 

 

Look forward to the Good New Days.

[dad-proof]

2 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

This is only true for a system in constant decline.

 

Not one in which three or four times the production is set to hit maturity in 5-7 years. 

 

Look forward to the Good New Days.

I don't disagree. My point was more philosophical - it is always easier to notice what is lost instead of appreciating the new or things that remain.

 

[fishnbowljoe]

18 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

MORAL:  You can lead an ass to bourbon, but when their eyes glaze early in the explanation . . .

 

Great Harry! However, I like my version a little better, myself being a "Weller" whore not withstanding. (About horticulturists) Moral: "You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think."  

 

Biba! Joe

[BigSkyDrams]

I don’t have much to add, but wanted to drop in to say this is a great thread. There have been some gems of wisdom, and a number of very clever and useful phrases I’ll have to remember, dropped in the comments. Thanks for the education all!

[bayouredd]

First off, I don't mind admitting to being a rookie, but I still remember getting a bottle from my Sister, of Old Bardstown for my Birthday in the 70's. Hell, I had never heard of it and considered it to be rot-gut. The year before, I received a bottle of Old Fitz from my other Sister, the birthday a year past. I had never heard of  the Old Fitz, either, but remembered it to be quite enjoyable. That Sister was an Old Charter fan, big-time.

 

Fast-forward 45+ years; I don't love everything I try, but know what my palate agrees with & try to duplicate the "loves." There are some pretty good bourbons out there, but take some attempts to locate. The single barrel concept is a crap-shoot, but one I totally enjoy playing the odds on. Hell, Brothers; I'm just digging the ride!!!!

[ThirstyinOhio]

While I do miss the age statements and pricing from what seams like just a few years ago (EC18 for under $50 was a daily drinker for me), I am excited about the additional brands that this boom has created.  There have been a lot great products, Elijah Craig Barrel Proof and Maker's Mark Cask Strength for example,  that have been released thanks to this surge in demand and with all of the major distilleries growing and expanding at an extraordinary pace that I look forward to see what comes next. 

[Cranecreek]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:53 PM, dad-proof said:

Look forward to the Good New Days.

Oh I certainly hope so.  That would be great.  Although when I look at the present landscape what I see is every distillery pumping out at maximum capacity to cash in on this bourbon craze.  How many new distillers that used to be NDPs have built facilities ?  Millions, yes millions of more gallons per year than just a year or two ago.  More bourbon than has ever been in production in our history.  Let's take Diageo and the new Bulleit distillery for an example.  Does anyone seriously believe that they will commit to warehousing those newly produced barrels for 6 to 8 years in hopes that demand will still be there ?  The future as I see it, is that the shelves will be flooded with new expressions of young products.  The astute will still be able to seek out quality products, given that they will be willing to pay a premium for them.  As I have posted before there are players that have been downplaying the significance of BIB and the term "straight".  Why is that ?  It will be interesting for sure. 

 

"I could be wrong now, but I don't think so ! "  (credits due to the MONK theme song)

Edited October 25, 2018 by Cranecreek

[sbsbsb]

On 10/24/2018 at 12:28 PM, The Black Tot said:

How to respond...

 

In 2012 I could go to Binny's and Parker's Heritage POH was sitting on the shelf for 80 bucks.

 

Now Blood Oath costs 80 bucks, and I'd have to beg to get a Parker's Heritage release for 200 bucks.

 

Age statements DID reduce or disappear in a lot of cases. We are paying more money for less age.

 

Is the younger whiskey tasting the same due to technological improvements? Some say yes. I think not. Either way it's a self-serving argument by the producers.

 

An oft stated point on here is that older whiskey batches were less consistent, but that the great ones really stood out with very unique characters. Nowadays we have more consistent product, but that doesn't mean it's consistently knocked out of the park.

 

I've been walking around liquor stores in Houston this month and I have to say that for the most part...

 

...they don't have anything I want to buy...

 

Even of the private barrels that I take chances on, I'd say the success rate (of finding a really special one) is about 15%. 

 

A few releases come out a year like the KC limited rye which are great whiskey for a fair price. But for the most part it's much harder to find whiskey that good for a fair price than it used to be.

 

If you're buying whiskey from the stores I've been in in the last month and you're excited about it, then YES, you're getting used to, maybe not INFERIOR (which can be interpreted as a strong word) whiskey, but certainly not as exciting as what could be bought for the same effort and price 5 years ago. It is not traitorous to the hobby to admit this.

 

This is just what happens when stocks are put under strain.

 

Some distilleries are now almost quintupling in capacity (BT). In the long run, it's going to be FINE.

 

 

This +1000.  Bottom line, would you rather have the selection/prices of today, or the selection/prices of the first decade of 2000, the 90's, the 80's, the 70's, AND the 60's?  It's not just dropped age statements, and lesser age on products that were always not age stated, nor the lack of well-aged bourbon available at reasonable prices from top-shelf distilleries.  It's higher entry proofs, boxed yeast, bigger stills, bigger batches, literally hundreds of NDP's that all draw from the same one or two sources, overpriced craft that is untested and produced by inexperienced staff, I could go on and on.  Will most of us live long enough to see "the long run"?  

[fosmith]

Well, last night I spent the evening with a 4 oz. pour of Booker's 2018-2 and tonight a 4 oz. pour of Stagg Jr. batch 10 and both were f'ing amazing!  So, I can't accept the premise that I'm drinking inferior whiskey. 

[The Black Tot]

54 minutes ago, fosmith said:

Well, last night I spent the evening with a 4 oz. pour of Booker's 2018-2 and tonight a 4 oz. pour of Stagg Jr. batch 10 and both were f'ing amazing!  So, I can't accept the premise that I'm drinking inferior whiskey. 

 

Whether you can accept it or not, 5 years ago you'd have been tripping over the same bottle of Bookers sitting 5 deep on the shelf for 30 less bucks a bottle with another year or two of age on it.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by The Black Tot

[fosmith]

3 minutes ago, The Black Tot said:

 

Whether you can accept it or not, 5 years ago you'd have been tripping over the same bottle of Bookers sitting 5 deep on the shelf for 30 less bucks a bottle and another year or two of age on it.

 

I first tried Booker's five or six years ago and thought it was amazing.  I still think it is amazing.  And, it's still sitting 5 deep on the shelf for almost the same price ($55) as it was then ($50)...  That's here in the SF Bay Area.  I know it's more in other parts of the US.  I know the age statement has gone down from 7+ years to 6+ years but that's just the youngest whiskey in the batch.  There's probably 8+ yo. juice in there too. 

[The Black Tot]

I'm glad it's still working for you. I have had some disappointing batches from the last two years.

 

And an 8yr age statement also means there's probably 9+ yo. juice in there too. It's still objectively better value to have a higher age statement at the same pricing.

 

Also glad you're finding it for 55. It's 75-80 here this week, and flat out missing from most stores.

[fosmith]

8 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

I'm glad it's still working for you. I have had some disappointing batches from the last two years.

 

And an 8yr age statement also means there's probably 9+ yo. juice in there too. It's still objectively better value to have a higher age statement at the same pricing.

 

Also glad you're finding it for 55. It's 75-80 here this week, and flat out missing from most stores.

Yea, some are better than others (wasn't crazy about a couple of the 2017 batches) but I just polished off a Backyard BBQ (2018-02) and loved it.  But if it was $75-$80, I'd be moving on to Stagg Jr., ECBP, WTRB, etc...

[fenderbender4]

I think overall, yes (not saying we "like" it, but accustomed to is something different).  And looking at a general trend, you have to throw out the outlier examples.  It's unfortunate but also predictable given the "gold rush and shortage".  I haven't been around bourbon nearly as long as many knowledgeable members here but from what I've seen and tasted it's just part of the cycle.

 

The dropping of age statements like hot potatoes etc. and the proliferation of NDP's with more capital put into branding and bottle labels than actual product seems to be the overarching trend.  

 

Just my singular experience/observation.

[Flyfish]

I'm one of those value conscious consumers who knows that price does not necessarily equate with quality. I'm willing to pay a couple bucks more for bourbon that I really like but I am also into comparison shopping and passing on it when the price just seems out of line. For example, we passed through Louisville yesterday and I bought some Blanton's at Total Wine for  $49.99. A couple miles up the road, Liquor Barn had it for $65.99. At least they had it for a few minutes. Other shoppers were grabbing it up. The haul for the day also included:

EW BIB  $17.99

VOB BIB   $21.99 (handle--should have gotten 2 but consoled myself with the thought that we'll be back right after Xmas)

RR 10YO   $24.99 (x 2)

WT 101   $32.09 (handle--see VOB comment)

JBDC   $17.99 (x2--a new favorite with Mrs. F)

EC   $25.99

OWA  $26.99 (each for the last 2)

CEHT SmB   $39.99 (limit 1)

Old Bardstown BIB   $23.99

   The OB was the only purchase I regret. Bought it because I had never had the BIB and hoped it was better than the regular. Not to me. There was a time when I thought $40 was a good price for Blanton's. Now $50 seems like a bargain. So far, $65 does not strike me as an enticement. I have a couple bottles each of Booker's and Stagg Jr. left from when they were about $50. And even a AAA 10YO that I am saving for a couple more years to see if it lives up to my fond memories. My palate memory is not as precise as some of you who can recall exactly what something was like in 1984 so I'll be testing the AAA against nostalgia rather than total recall. 

   Count me among those who think that these are the good ol' days of bourbon. I regret the loss of age statements in some cases but there are numerous high quality options and innovative products being offered almost every day. I agree with Mrs. F--on this issue at least--that Distiller's Cut represents an exceptional quality/price ratio. The OWA now costs as much for a 750 as I used to pay for handles but it is till outstanding at the price. And if I have to pay $40 for CEHT, well, I think I will just cut back on the Brussels sprouts in order to afford it.

 

[smokinjoe]

6 minutes ago, Flyfish said:

I'm one of those value conscious consumers who knows that price does not necessarily equate with quality. I'm willing to pay a couple bucks more for bourbon that I really like but I am also into comparison shopping and passing on it when the price just seems out of line. For example, we passed through Louisville yesterday and I bought some Blanton's at Total Wine for  $49.99. A couple miles up the road, Liquor Barn had it for $65.99. At least they had it for a few minutes. Other shoppers were grabbing it up. The haul for the day also included:

EW BIB  $17.99

VOB BIB   $21.99 (handle--should have gotten 2 but consoled myself with the thought that we'll be back right after Xmas)

RR 10YO   $24.99 (x 2)

WT 101   $32.09 (handle--see VOB comment)

JBDC   $17.99 (x2--a new favorite with Mrs. F)

EC   $25.99

OWA  $26.99 (each for the last 2)

CEHT SmB   $39.99 (limit 1)

Old Bardstown BIB   $23.99

   The OB was the only purchase I regret. Bought it because I had never had the BIB and hoped it was better than the regular. Not to me. There was a time when I thought $40 was a good price for Blanton's. Now $50 seems like a bargain. So far, $65 does not strike me as an enticement. I have a couple bottles each of Booker's and Stagg Jr. left from when they were about $50. And even a AAA 10YO that I am saving for a couple more years to see if it lives up to my fond memories. My palate memory is not as precise as some of you who can recall exactly what something was like in 1984 so I'll be testing the AAA against nostalgia rather than total recall. 

   Count me among those who think that these are the good ol' days of bourbon. I regret the loss of age statements in some cases but there are numerous high quality options and innovative products being offered almost every day. I agree with Mrs. F--on this issue at least--that Distiller's Cut represents an exceptional quality/price ratio. The OWA now costs as much for a 750 as I used to pay for handles but it is till outstanding at the price. And if I have to pay $40 for CEHT, well, I think I will just cut back on the Brussels sprouts in order to afford it.

 

If this post right here doesn’t debunk the theory that bourbon consumers are conditioned to inferior whiskey, and somehow there is nothing on the shelf of quality and value, I don’t know what can.

[flahute]

^^^^^^^This right here.

[GaryT]

Do I miss the days of being able to walk into one of several local stores and grab an ETL for $27, or an OWA for $25 (or a OGD 114 for $21)?  Sure.  But I tell ya what - JB Distiller's Cut at $25 (which I pass loads on the shelf, and can't understand why) to me is every bit of a well crafted whiskies as those (and being NCF, I'm not sure I don't like it better at times).  Sure, prices have gotten crazy, and we're seeing age statements disappear - which I wish wasn't happening.  And the craft whiskey that is taking up more shelf space has yet to hit stride in terms of quality (at least none that I've tried yet).  But we're seeing more innovation, and a helluva lot more rye options today than 6-7 yrs back.  All of the ramped up production hasn't produced stocks that have aged yet to what we're looking for with 7-12 yrs (or older) - but it eventually will.  When that happens, will we see some age statements return?  I'd like to think so (free market and all, seems like they may - if only to differentiate)  But maybe they won't if most consumers don't seem to care much about that.  

[Paddy]

^^^^To add, RRSB at $51.99, ET BIB liters for $19.99, WTRB for $36.99 (that's barrel proof Turkey folks!), VOB BIB for $11.99, ECSmB for $24.99, Blanton's at $49.99, WSR at $18.99, 1792 for $22.99, BT for $22.99 and WT101 for $17.99.  ^^^Just mentioning a few that I actually saw TODAY...  all fully stocked and readily available.

 

Not to mention, the entire Barrell line of bourbon and rye, the entire line of HW products, the entire BF line of products (including the whiskey row series), and, I could go on... but you already get the point. 

 

Yes, I do miss the days of age statements and shelves full of W12, but when have we ever had it any better, than now?  

[kevinbrink]

The one inarguable fact is that if you like high proof whiskey of any sort there is a much larger variety today than ever before. 

[Harry in WashDC]

6 hours ago, Paddy said:

^^^^To add, RRSB at $51.99, ET BIB liters for $19.99, WTRB for $36.99 (that's barrel proof Turkey folks!), VOB BIB for $11.99, ECSmB for $24.99, Blanton's at $49.99, WSR at $18.99, 1792 for $22.99, BT for $22.99 and WT101 for $17.99.  ^^^Just mentioning a few that I actually saw TODAY...  all fully stocked and readily available.

 

Not to mention, the entire Barrell line of bourbon and rye, the entire line of HW products, the entire BF line of products (including the whiskey row series), and, I could go on... but you already get the point. 

 

Yes, I do miss the days of age statements and shelves full of W12, but when have we ever had it any better, than now?  

That "all fully stocked and readily available" caught my eye.  It wasn't that long ago (2014?) that basic BT was seen twice a year, maybe.  Even as late as last year, a road-side shop on US 301 in MD literally pulled one from under the counter and offered it to me at "only $31.99".  Even the VA ABC stores on the I-95 corridor had it then at $27.  In other words, availability of things I like (which certainly is not a universal standard) has improved over the last few years.  The LEs?  Well, back in 2004 or so, I did buy more than a few at then-outrageous prices (mostly Lot B at $54).  The few I've tasted lately just didn't measure up - even if they'd been available at the "old" prices (GTS is an exception).   I do wish more stores near me would do more 4R PS's, but as long as HH keeps releasing things like Pikesville Rye while keeping their standard offerings and while JB/S keeps offering things like JB BIB/DCut @ $20/21, respectively, I'll be OK.  ASIDE:  On that LE observation--I'm old; maybe that's a sign my palate is going.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Harry in WashDC
Enter the dollar sign, son.

[Jazzhead]

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:08 PM, mosugoji64 said:

Some great points made here already, but if the OP was referring in whole or part to the oft-romanticized glut years, keep in mind that distilleries were bottling whiskey that they likely thought was too old at the time but had to move somehow. In some cases, they may be now bottling something more in with what they intended all along. 

We may have to be more selective these days, but there's still some great whiskey to be had at reasonable prices if you're willing to spend a little time educating yourself.

I think bourbon today is of higher quality and better tasting than it's ever been.    Like many, my bunker holds its fair share of dusties,   so I can compare old to new.   And while the old stuff was fine,  the breadth of choices out there today makes for a garden of delights.    That's partly the work of the "legacy" distillers,  with new lines of products with craft presentations (minimal filtering,  real care in batching, etc)  and partly the reality that the craft distillers' bourbon products are finally starting to come of age.    I was sipping an Old Forester Statesman last evening and was just astonished how well,  at least to my taste, it captured the classic OF notes of toffee and leather,  but with a mouthfeel that was as luxurious as a fine single malt.    No age statement, to be sure,  but it's hard for me to say that more aging would have improved this.    It was honey OF at the perfect proof for me.

 

Taste tells,  and my taste tells me that you are quite likely correct -  it is possible today, from most of the legacy distillers,  to find examples of their products that are exactly as intended in a perfect world -  ideal aging, batching, and presentation.     Do you pay a premium for these products?   Yes, in some cases - but bourbon remains a relative bargain compared to scotch.    

 

 

[wadewood]

There is still plenty of great bourbon available, we are just paying way more for it these days.

[Flyfish]

3 minutes ago, wadewood said:

There is still plenty of great bourbon available, we are just paying way more for it these days.

Mrs. F. and I went grocery shopping yesterday. I wanted to make cinnamon French toast for Sunday brunch so went looking for an appropriate bread. One brand was $6.25. Mrs. F shook her head. So, I found another option: only $9.00. I know this is not typical. Still, you might try to remember what a loaf of plain old white bread cost 10 years ago and see what it goes for today. Bought a loaf of Texas Toast--basically white bread sliced thick--and I'll add some cinnamon to the custard I dip it in. I don't like paying more for essentials, such as bourbon, but there are still great values out there. In the grand scheme of things, all of us on this site are complaining about high-class problems. A huge percentage of the world population drinks water that is the color of bourbon without all of bourbon's nutritional attributes.

[Jazzhead]

24 minutes ago, wadewood said:

There is still plenty of great bourbon available, we are just paying way more for it these days.

True,  the bourbon industry no doubt has wished for years that its products could command the prices that single malt scotch does.    The stuff's just as tasty, after all!   

 

The big Kentucky producers are true factories;   the way it is produced at scale permits lower pricing than for single malt scotch.  The same is even more so for Canadian whiskey.

 

Craft distillers have to price their products higher than the legacy bourbon distillers,  figuring that folks may pay more , as they do for single malt scotch,  for pot still distillation, smaller batching and grain to glass production.     And in that higher price point is room for the legacy distillers to put out bottles with craft presentation, like the OF Whiskey Row series,  Pikesville Rye. and Old Taylor BIB.    

Edited October 28, 2018 by Jazzhead