Empty bottles pappy Vanwinkle on eBay

[flahute]

2 hours ago, Jazz June said:

I don't know anything about this, but the tests can reliably tell the difference between WSR and PVW? What about Weller 12 and PVW? It's one thing if it is something wildly different, but if they can really tell the difference easily between these closer relatives, then I'm impressed.

 

 

Yep. They can tell the difference.

[jvd99]

There's tons of info on the chemical analysis of whiskey:

 

Recent testing of 50+ bottles from auction

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-46566703

 

Chromatography in plain English 

https://www.chromatographytoday.com/news/gc-mdgc/32/breaking-news/counterfeit-whisky-mdash-chromatography-identifies-the-spirit/36823

 

Portable chromatography device

http://www.perkinelmer.com/corporate/stories/detecting-fake-whisky.html

 

Very nerdy research paper

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266914817_Chemical_composition_analysis_and_authentication_of_whisky

 

[schwoo]

I could see bars buying and refilling the bottles too

Yes, I’ve thought about this. After a couple of drinks, would you really be able to tell the difference if they filled a bottle with wellar?

[squire]

2 hours ago, schwoo said:

Yes, I’ve thought about this. After a couple of drinks, would you really be able to tell the difference if they filled a bottle with wellar?

After years of conducting blind tastings I've come to believe most people can't.  Even on the first drink.

[Harry in WashDC]

On 3/6/2019 at 9:31 AM, jvd99 said:

There's tons of info on the chemical analysis of whiskey:

 

Recent testing of 50+ bottles from auction

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-46566703

 

Chromatography in plain English 

https://www.chromatographytoday.com/news/gc-mdgc/32/breaking-news/counterfeit-whisky-mdash-chromatography-identifies-the-spirit/36823

 

Portable chromatography device

http://www.perkinelmer.com/corporate/stories/detecting-fake-whisky.html

 

Very nerdy research paper

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266914817_Chemical_composition_analysis_and_authentication_of_whisky

 

I think I missed this the first time around.  So, THX!!

[Harry in WashDC]

3 hours ago, schwoo said:

Yes, I’ve thought about this. After a couple of drinks, would you really be able to tell the difference if they filled a bottle with wellar?

Years ago while I was in grad school, I worked in a bar kitchen.  Bar sold mostly beer to people with "good" IDs on the weekend and to afternoon drinkers aged 50-70 during the week starting around 2PM (who usually had taxied home by 5PM).  I got to drink for free.  I spoke up when the draft Michelob I always drank changed flavor although the Michelob draft pull hadn't changed.  I was taken aside and told NOT to talk about this while patrons were present.  That was more than a generation (or two, truth be told) ago, and the difference in price between basic Bud and Michelob back then was about 3 cents on the pint.  Do I think "some" bars would play this same game today given the (much larger) spread between, say, Larceny and Lot B?  Yup.  It's why I usually drink "expensive" stuff only in places I KNOW are unlikely to cheat me.  Elsewhere, I stick to stuff unlikely to be adulterated.

[BrokeCal]

On 2/25/2019 at 6:46 PM, Whiskeythink.com said:

5. People refill them, then impress their friends by offering a pour of Pappy. Probably many wont know the difference anyway.

I would think this is the most viable reason.  If one my friends says they were able to get a bottle of Pappy I would honestly think this is what they probably did (as sad as that may be).  More sad than that though, if they filled it with a Wellers, or even more sneaky, a poor man's Pappy Weller blend.... There is no way I would be sure enough to call them on it.

[alcoholica]

On 3/4/2019 at 9:25 PM, Jazz June said:

While I agree that relatively little seems to have been done by the large distilleries in stopping counterfeiters, I'll note that for Van Winkle in particular, it may not be up to BT (Sazerac) alone or at all. For example, the Van Winkle Whiskey Company has acted to protect the VAN WINKLE trademarks, using their own attorneys, rather than Sazerac's. Really going after the counterfeiters would be quite a bit of overhead for what I understand to be a two person company that primarily picks barrels.

 

Also, if the fakes are so good that even experts can't tell, how would it be proven in court that the defendant was selling counterfeits? I'm still surprised there isn't more crackdown on it though, because the unlicensed sale of alcohol is illegal itself.

Yes the Van Winkle line is still owned by the Van Winkle family, so they call the shots on their stuff. Probably too cheap or short sighted to make the change to proprietary materials, or they figure someone will figure a workaround fairly quickly. 

 

 

[schwoo]

eventually sold for $2800.

[Richnimrod]

9 hours ago, schwoo said:

eventually sold for $2800.

Jeeeez!   ...And I've drunk up nearly of mine over the years.    I wonder if I could sell the last couple pours in the open bottle to some fool for about a C-note each?

....just imagining the several very nice bottles of Bourbon I could get with 2-or3-hundred dollars....

[pyro273]

10 hours ago, schwoo said:

eventually sold for $2800.

Or you could just forgo the new car and get a bottle of 25 year PVW for $25K....decisions, decisions....

Edited May 24, 2019 by pyro273
bad grammar

[schwoo]

found this for sale on bottle spot. Is anyone here aware of Pappy with the silver cap? Is this real?

[BusterChestnut]

19 minutes ago, schwoo said:

found this for sale on bottle spot. Is anyone here aware of Pappy with the silver cap? Is this real?

Pretty sure it’s just plastic wrap to keep the foil intact when shipping 

[schwoo]

Actually, I just heard from the seller, and you are correct . It’s just plastic wrap. I’m trying to add to my collection, but being very cautious. Thanks for the advice.

[smokinjoe]

28 minutes ago, schwoo said:

Actually, I just heard from the seller, and you are correct . It’s just plastic wrap. I’m trying to add to my collection, but being very cautious. Thanks for the advice.

As the cap seems to be the big area where counterfeits can be cleaned up, I’d be wary of this one.  Hiding something?  

[Vosgar]

Went on the website to check it out, $1000??!! Obviously you can spend your money however you want, but even if it's the real deal, that's insane money. If you're really trying to add to your collection, I'd look for a bottle with absolutely no stories/questions.

[fishnbowljoe]

I find it kind of odd that there’s plastic wrap to protect the cap on a bottle that has yet to be sold and shipped.  Is this just the seller being presumptuous, or has this bottle possibly been bought and sold before? Maybe more than once?  Not trying to be a nay sayer, but ya’ just never know.

 

Biba! Joe

[flahute]

38 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

I find it kind of odd that there’s plastic wrap to protect the cap on a bottle that has yet to be sold and shipped.  Is this just the seller being presumptuous, or has this bottle possibly been bought and sold before? Maybe more than once?  Not trying to be a nay sayer, but ya’ just never know.

 

Biba! Joe

It looks like parafilm. Collectors use this impede evaporation in rare bottles that will be stored for a long period of time and run the risk of the cork drying out. It's pretty common.

Doesn't mean I trust it though. As the other Joe said, it could easily be hiding something.

 

[pyro273]

Others that REALLY know will have to weigh in but looking at the fill level, it appears to be a bit light.   Comparatively, my unopened PVW15 is much closer to the seal and very close to  my unopened RVW10, in whose provenance I am quite positive.  Looking at some unopened W12a and OWAs, their fill levels also match.  The one that gives me pause is the PVW12, whose fill level looks like the bottle above.  That one (as well as the PVW15) were bought secondhand by the wife so.....

 

I've never really looked at this before so the question is, in the age of automatic fillers, is it likely that fill levels can vary that much?  Given that they are all from different years, I can see where variations can come in but I don't know what I don't know.

[Marekv8]

The glass structures themselves can vary volume-wise from bottle to bottle, affecting the fill levels. The bone stock VW bottles aren't exactly precision-made scientific equipment.

[Bob_Loblaw]

My two cents:  Nothing about the fill level alarms me.  If I were to proceed I would request close up pictures of the top/foil without the shrink wrap and also a clear picture of the laser code.  

 

I am not well versed on secondary pricing, but I believe 1k is very near the top range of secondary pricing so there is absolutely no reason to reach for this unless you are 100% sure it was legit.   

[BottledInBond]

On 7/7/2019 at 11:23 PM, pyro273 said:

Others that REALLY know will have to weigh in but looking at the fill level, it appears to be a bit light.   Comparatively, my unopened PVW15 is much closer to the seal and very close to  my unopened RVW10, in whose provenance I am quite positive.  Looking at some unopened W12a and OWAs, their fill levels also match.  The one that gives me pause is the PVW12, whose fill level looks like the bottle above.  That one (as well as the PVW15) were bought secondhand by the wife so.....

 

I've never really looked at this before so the question is, in the age of automatic fillers, is it likely that fill levels can vary that much?  Given that they are all from different years, I can see where variations can come in but I don't know what I don't know.

What is this PVW12 you speak of? No such product exists.

 

But seriously, I’ve bought multiple bottles from the same barrel plenty of times, and frequently they have differences in fill level that are noticeable. I’m sure there are slight differences in the glass itself, the filler machines aren’t 100% perfect on consistency, plus you have factors like the cork. With natural corks, one may be slightly more porous than another, allow more evaporation (which the parafilm users are trying to stop)

 

 

 

[Bours]

Best bet is to crack/break your empties. Heard folks dumpster dive just for refills.