WhiskeyBlender Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, rjg1701 said: To circle back to the original topic, (this may have been discussed in one of the shared links) when cutting from barrel proof to bottle proof if water is added too quickly it can create sour/unpleasant flavors IIRC. Another of the reasons that dusties which had little to no dilution are so tasty. Whew, sorry fellas, I just got home after being on the road for the past month, so I'm just now seeing all of this nasty business. I for one love this so-called "weird place" and never want to leave this wonderful group of bourbon "weirdos." Slainte! In all seriousness, now that the dust has cleared and we can actually have a serious conversation about this, as most of us tend to maintain our mutual friendship, respect, and cordiality, I'd love to dive a little deeper into this whole question because it is actually a very good one. From my personal work experience, I've found that while it can generally be said that lower entry proof = richer, sweeter bourbon from the water soluble caramelized wood sugars (i.e., glucose, arabinose, zylose, fructose, glycerol, etc.), while higher entry proof = more resinous, piney notes (i.e. trans-2-nonenal, and coniferaldehyde, which is a precursor to ethyl vanillate, from which part of the vanilla flavor comes), plus other aromatic aldehydes that derive from the thermal degradation of the oak's lignin (i.e., vanillin, syringaldehyde, and sinapaldehyde), slightly thinner in mouthfeel, etc., there are several other variables that contribute to this as well. Before I go into that, I'd like to say that there have been many great responses to this question from folks like @EarthQuake , @Mako254, @Richnimrod, @flahute, @Paddyetc. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your answers in tackling this excellent question. In my experience, the small grain used in a bourbon mash bill will have an affect upon desired entry proof. I'm sure a good deal of you have seen this before, but if there is wheat as the small grain, then an entry proof of somewhere between 110 to 115 works well. Otherwise, the wheat will take on too many polyphenol/tannin/astringent qualities. Rye, on the other hand, is heartier, and it can handle a higher entry proof. I find that somewhere between 118 to 122 works well for either bourbons where rye is the small grain, or for rye whiskeys. Rye is better at handling the more alcohol-soluble notes. However, while wheat has an entry proof range between 110 and 115 and rye has a range between 118 to 122, I find that this entry proof is further determined by the particular maturation and warehousing conditions of a bourbon. Heat will affect the direct rate at which the barrels mature, while humidity affects the relative rate. Taking both into account is absolutely crucial to determining what entry proof will be best for the bourbon to mature properly. For example, when I started working with Wyoming Whiskey back in October 2014, the original entry proof for their small batch wheat recipe bourbon was 110. An entry proof of 110 is great for a wheated bourbon that is maturing in the warm, more humid conditions in Kentucky (think Makers Mark), but for arid Wyoming, where there are long, cold, dry winters, and short, hot, dry summers, an entry proof of 110 doesn't offer enough alcohol soluble aromatic aldehyde notes (think vanillin). Thus, in that climate, a slightly higher entry proof of 114 works better, although one wouldn't want to go higher than that since the water soluble caramelized wood sugars are vital for a wheat recipe bourbon. I've had the opposite of this issue happen, where I've been working with distilleries in hot and humid conditions, and we've needed to reduce the entry proof. Again, that all depends upon the grain bill, distillation proof, amount of fatty acids in the distillate, etc. Then, one has to deal with how to decide the right entry proof for whiskeys that have arid, cold conditions, or hot, humid conditions, and you have to think about the grains, etc. So many variables to consider! The char level, along with bottling strength, will no doubt also be a factor in determining the best entry proof for a bourbon. Thus for instance, if I plan to age a rye recipe bourbon and I want to bottle it at 80 proof, and it is for a short time (2 to 4 years), then I would probably want to use a char #4 barrel and enter the bourbon at a higher strength (perhaps from 122 to 125). The higher strengths will draw out more color from the barrel a little faster, so if you have to drop from barrel to bottling strength in a short time, a char #4 is a good bet. That way, there will be enough color in the bourbon. This isn't my favorite scenario, as it tends to lack in the caramelized wood sugars, but is certainly one I've had to deal with before. There are many other factors which play into all of this, but I think others have done a great job in talking about this, so I won't delve into it. Again, a fantastic topic, but too bad it had to go sour. When everyone is respectful and courteous, which happens most of the time from what I've seen, then this forum is a real delight and is great to be a part of. I love the diversity of opinions, experiences, etc. On that note, a fantastic Father's Day to all you dads out there. Hope you're imbibing something truly amazing! Cheers, Nancy Edited June 17, 2019 by WhiskeyBlender 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishnbowljoe Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Thank you Nancy. Biba! Joe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRich Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Whew, sorry fellas, I just got home after being on the road for the past month, so I'm just now seeing all of this nasty business. I for one love this so-called "weird place" and never want to leave this wonderful group of bourbon "weirdos." Slainte! [emoji6] In all seriousness, now that the dust has cleared and we can actually have a serious conversation about this, as most of us tend to maintain our mutual friendship, respect, and cordiality, I'd love to dive a little deeper into this whole question because it is actually a very good one. From my personal work experience, I've found that while it can generally be said that lower entry proof = richer, sweeter bourbon from the water soluble caramelized wood sugars (i.e., glucose, arabinose, zylose, fructose, glycerol, etc.), while higher entry proof = more resinous, piney notes (i.e. trans-2-nonenal, and coniferaldehyde, which is a precursor to ethyl vanillate, from which part of the vanilla flavor comes), plus other aromatic aldehydes that derive from the thermal degradation of the oak's lignin (i.e., vanillin, syringaldehyde, and sinapaldehyde), slightly thinner in mouthfeel, etc., there are several other variables that contribute to this as well. Before I go into that, I'd like to say that there have been many great responses to this question from folks like [mention=12683]EarthQuake[/mention] , [mention=13117]Mako254[/mention], [mention=7871]Richnimrod[/mention], [mention=8946]flahute[/mention], [mention=8531]Paddy[/mention]etc. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your answers in tackling this excellent question. In my experience, the small grain used in a bourbon mash bill will have an affect upon desired entry proof. I'm sure a good deal of you have seen this before, but if there is wheat as the small grain, then an entry proof of somewhere between 110 to 115 works well. Otherwise, the wheat will take on too many polyphenol/tannin/astringent qualities. Rye, on the other hand, is heartier, and it can handle a higher entry proof. I find that somewhere between 118 to 122 works well for either bourbons where rye is the small grain, or for rye whiskeys. Rye is better at handling the more alcohol-soluble notes. However, while wheat has an entry proof range between 110 and 115 and rye has a range between 118 to 122, I find that this entry proof is further determined by the particular maturation and warehousing conditions of a bourbon. Heat will affect the direct rate at which the barrels mature, while humidity affects the relative rate. Taking both into account is absolutely crucial to determining what entry proof will be best for the bourbon to mature properly. For example, when I started working with Wyoming Whiskey back in October 2014, the original entry proof for their small batch wheat recipe bourbon was 110. An entry proof of 110 is great for a wheated bourbon that is maturing in the warm, more humid conditions in Kentucky (think Makers Mark), but for arid Wyoming, where there are long, cold, dry winters, and short, hot, dry summers, an entry proof of 110 doesn't offer enough alcohol soluble aromatic aldehyde notes (think vanillin). Thus, in that climate, a slightly higher entry proof of 114 works better, although one wouldn't want to go higher than that since the water soluble caramelized wood sugars are vital for a wheat recipe bourbon. I've had the opposite of this issue happen, where I've been working with distilleries in hot and humid conditions, and we've needed to reduce the entry proof. Again, that all depends upon the grain bill, distillation proof, amount of fatty acids in the distillate, etc. Then, one has to deal with how to decide the right entry proof for whiskeys that have arid, cold conditions, or hot, humid conditions, and you have to think about the grains, etc. So many variables to consider! The char level, along with bottling strength, will no doubt also be a factor in determining the best entry proof for a bourbon. Thus for instance, if I plan to age a rye recipe bourbon and I want to bottle it at 80 proof, and it is for a short time (2 to 4 years), then I would probably want to use a char #4 barrel and enter the bourbon at a higher strength (perhaps from 122 to 125). The higher strengths will draw out more color from the barrel a little faster, so if you have to drop from barrel to bottling strength in a short time, a char #4 is a good bet. That way, there will be enough color in the bourbon. This isn't my favorite scenario, as it tends to lack in the caramelized wood sugars, but is certainly one I've had to deal with before. There are many other factors which play into all of this, but I think others have done a great job in talking about this, so I won't delve into it. Again, a fantastic topic, but too bad it had to go sour. When everyone is respectful and courteous, which happens most of the time from what I've seen, then this forum is a real delight and is great to be a part of. I love the diversity of opinions, experiences, etc. On that note, a fantastic Father's Day to all you dads out there. Hope you're imbibing something truly amazing! Cheers, Nancy Nancy, I love when you go on like this! Many thanks for the response. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flahute Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 1 hour ago, WhiskeyBlender said: Whew, sorry fellas, I just got home after being on the road for the past month, so I'm just now seeing all of this nasty business. I for one love this so-called "weird place" and never want to leave this wonderful group of bourbon "weirdos." Slainte! In all seriousness, now that the dust has cleared and we can actually have a serious conversation about this, as most of us tend to maintain our mutual friendship, respect, and cordiality, I'd love to dive a little deeper into this whole question because it is actually a very good one. From my personal work experience, I've found that while it can generally be said that lower entry proof = richer, sweeter bourbon from the water soluble caramelized wood sugars (i.e., glucose, arabinose, zylose, fructose, glycerol, etc.), while higher entry proof = more resinous, piney notes (i.e. trans-2-nonenal, and coniferaldehyde, which is a precursor to ethyl vanillate, from which part of the vanilla flavor comes), plus other aromatic aldehydes that derive from the thermal degradation of the oak's lignin (i.e., vanillin, syringaldehyde, and sinapaldehyde), slightly thinner in mouthfeel, etc., there are several other variables that contribute to this as well. Before I go into that, I'd like to say that there have been many great responses to this question from folks like @EarthQuake , @Mako254, @Richnimrod, @flahute, @Paddyetc. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your answers in tackling this excellent question. In my experience, the small grain used in a bourbon mash bill will have an affect upon desired entry proof. I'm sure a good deal of you have seen this before, but if there is wheat as the small grain, then an entry proof of somewhere between 110 to 115 works well. Otherwise, the wheat will take on too many polyphenol/tannin/astringent qualities. Rye, on the other hand, is heartier, and it can handle a higher entry proof. I find that somewhere between 118 to 122 works well for either bourbons where rye is the small grain, or for rye whiskeys. Rye is better at handling the more alcohol-soluble notes. However, while wheat has an entry proof range between 110 and 115 and rye has a range between 118 to 122, I find that this entry proof is further determined by the particular maturation and warehousing conditions of a bourbon. Heat will affect the direct rate at which the barrels mature, while humidity affects the relative rate. Taking both into account is absolutely crucial to determining what entry proof will be best for the bourbon to mature properly. For example, when I started working with Wyoming Whiskey back in October 2014, the original entry proof for their small batch wheat recipe bourbon was 110. An entry proof of 110 is great for a wheated bourbon that is maturing in the warm, more humid conditions in Kentucky (think Makers Mark), but for arid Wyoming, where there are long, cold, dry winters, and short, hot, dry summers, an entry proof of 110 doesn't offer enough alcohol soluble aromatic aldehyde notes (think vanillin). Thus, in that climate, a slightly higher entry proof of 114 works better, although one wouldn't want to go higher than that since the water soluble caramelized wood sugars are vital for a wheat recipe bourbon. I've had the opposite of this issue happen, where I've been working with distilleries in hot and humid conditions, and we've needed to reduce the entry proof. Again, that all depends upon the grain bill, distillation proof, amount of fatty acids in the distillate, etc. Then, one has to deal with how to decide the right entry proof for whiskeys that have arid, cold conditions, or hot, humid conditions, and you have to think about the grains, etc. So many variables to consider! The char level, along with bottling strength, will no doubt also be a factor in determining the best entry proof for a bourbon. Thus for instance, if I plan to age a rye recipe bourbon and I want to bottle it at 80 proof, and it is for a short time (2 to 4 years), then I would probably want to use a char #4 barrel and enter the bourbon at a higher strength (perhaps from 122 to 125). The higher strengths will draw out more color from the barrel a little faster, so if you have to drop from barrel to bottling strength in a short time, a char #4 is a good bet. That way, there will be enough color in the bourbon. This isn't my favorite scenario, as it tends to lack in the caramelized wood sugars, but is certainly one I've had to deal with before. There are many other factors which play into all of this, but I think others have done a great job in talking about this, so I won't delve into it. Again, a fantastic topic, but too bad it had to go sour. When everyone is respectful and courteous, which happens most of the time from what I've seen, then this forum is a real delight and is great to be a part of. I love the diversity of opinions, experiences, etc. On that note, a fantastic Father's Day to all you dads out there. Hope you're imbibing something truly amazing! Cheers, Nancy And once again Nancy enters the stage and teaches all of us more than we realized we didn't know. Always a pleasure. And thanks for answering this question. We all missed you. And thanks for the nice comments. You and Jim have taught me most of what I know. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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