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flahute

Irish whiskey vs. Scotch

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flahute

This is a serious question for all of you Irish and Scotch fans: what makes them different?

 

I’m a novice with both. I know that they both are generally distilled from malted barley. 

Let’s remove peat from the discussion. 

I like pretty much every Irish whiskey I try. I struggle with non peated Scotch. Why is that?

Aside from peat, what is happening that makes these whiskies taste different?

 

Am I missing something obvious? I may be dumb. 

Educate me. 

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Harry in WashDC
1 hour ago, flahute said:

This is a serious question for all of you Irish and Scotch fans: what makes them different?

 

I’m a novice with both. I know that they both are generally distilled from malted barley. 

Let’s remove peat from the discussion. 

I like pretty much every Irish whiskey I try. I struggle with non peated Scotch. Why is that?

Aside from peat, what is happening that makes these whiskies taste different?

 

Am I missing something obvious? I may be dumb. 

Educate me. 

Steve - Like you, I am mystified as to why I like Irish but don't care much for most scotches, particularly the peated single malts (which I find too smokey and vaguely iodinish).  Lowland blended scotches which lack the peat and salt of the single malts are ok, but I still like the Irish better.  I don't have a technical answer.  OTOH, I did have an extended conversation with John Glaser of Compass Box fame at a Whisky Fest WashDC (just after chugging a shot of Yippee Kai Yay poured by David Perkins) (NOT really bragging, just setting the context) about WHY some bourbon drinkers dislike scotch.  IIRC, he mentioned the slightly sweeter undertones in bourbon, the more prominent influence of NEW oak barrels (caramels, vanilla, etc.), and the higher aging temperatures in the US.  (Remember, NYC is on the same latitude as Rome, Italy, and Edinburgh, Scotland is much further North (the Gulf Stream's influence notwithstanding.))

 

Bottom line - Ours not to reason why; ours but to sip and sigh.

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Vosgar

I'm by no means an expert but here's a couple of things I'm pretty sure of.....maybe, possibly, sort of sure:

 

Scotch uses malted barley whereas Irish will also use unmalted barley 

Scotch is normally twice distilled, Irish triple distilled

 

You might want to wait until the intelligent guys post before you believe anything I've said here.

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Harry in WashDC
13 minutes ago, Vosgar said:

I'm by no means an expert but here's a couple of things I'm pretty sure of.....maybe, possibly, sort of sure:

 

Scotch uses malted barley whereas Irish will also use unmalted barley 

Scotch is normally twice distilled, Irish triple distilled

 

You might want to wait until the intelligent guys post before you believe anything I've said here.

Gotta say, this rings a bell.  Back when Cooley was releasing their Michael Collins Single Malt and their John L. Sullivan blend (which are the Irish offerings that got me to continue to sample Irish Whiskies other than basic Bushmills (oily) and basic Jamesons (uninteresting)), a local rep for them did tout both the handling of the mash and the distilling process as well as the lack (mostly) of peat smoke.  When Maguffin(?) joined SB and subtly promoted the Irish Whiskey Society of America, I did bite.  That discussion as well as some really old posts by Gary Gillman regarding disilling techniques and equipment caused me to conclude that there is, indeed,a scientific reason why I like Irish whiskies more than I like most scotches.  The details have faded with the passage of time and brain cells.  Alas.

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lcpfratn

Steve, can you give us an idea of what Scotch you’ve tried? Have you tried any well aged (at least 12 years old) single malt unpeated Scotch or have you been mostly drinking younger Scotch or blended Scotch?

Blended Scotch is not a blend of different single malt Scotches, but rather a blend of some single malts and grain whisky...usually made from regular barley grain, but could be made from corn or other grains.

Most single malt Scotch is aged in a used barrel of some sort, and Scotch that has been solely aged in used bourbon barrels usually need to be aged beyond 12 years before I enjoy them as much as a similar aged Scotch that was aged or finished in a sherry or port barrel. There are some exceptions, such as Old Pulteney 12 year old, which is one that I like a lot. I like some other 12 year and younger single malts that are aged solely in ex-bourbon barrels, but I like them much better as they get older...at least 15 to 18 years. Obviously the older they are the more expensive they are, but you can find some good 18 year old Scotch aged solely in ex-bourbon casks for far less than 18 year old bourbon.

I think the sherry matured or finished single malt Scotch category has more choices that are very good at 12 years of age. Give Macallan 12 or Glendronach 12 a try.

Three blended single malts that I recommend to people all the time in order of preference are JW Green Label (15yo), Naked Grouse and Monkey Shoulder. Compass Box also makes some great blended single malts, but the prices creep up quickly, especially for their limited editions.

You said to leave out peated Scotch, which is a shame because that’s one of my favorite categories. Lagavulin 16 really turned me on to peated Scotch, and I haven’t looked back since.

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flahute
6 minutes ago, lcpfratn said:

Steve, can you give us an idea of what Scotch you’ve tried? Have you tried any well aged (at least 12 years old) single malt unpeated Scotch or have you been mostly drinking younger Scotch or blended Scotch?

Blended Scotch is not a blend of different single malt Scotches, but rather a blend of some single malts and grain whisky...usually made from regular barley grain, but could be made from corn or other grains.

Most single malt Scotch is aged in a used barrel of some sort, and Scotch that has been solely aged in used bourbon barrels usually need to be aged beyond 12 years before I enjoy them as much as a similar aged Scotch that was aged or finished in a sherry or port barrel. There are some exceptions, such as Old Pulteney 12 year old, which is one that I like a lot. I like some other 12 year and younger single malts that are aged solely in ex-bourbon barrels, but I like them much better as they get older...at least 15 to 18 years. Obviously the older they are the more expensive they are, but you can find some good 18 year old Scotch aged solely in ex-bourbon casks for far less than 18 year old bourbon.

I think the sherry matured or finished single malt Scotch category has more choices that are very good at 12 years of age. Give Macallan 12 or Glendronach 12 a try.

Three blended single malts that I recommend to people all the time in order of preference are JW Green Label (15yo), Naked Grouse and Monkey Shoulder. Compass Box also makes some great blended single malts, but the prices creep up quickly, especially for their limited editions.

You said to leave out peated Scotch, which is a shame because that’s one of my favorite categories. Lagavulin 16 really turned me on to peated Scotch, and I haven’t looked back since.
 

Thanks for this question. I will get back to you.

I currently have on hand: Balvenie 15, Glenlivet 21, and Compass Box Spice Tree. I've also tried Aberlour 12 and an obscure Asia only Johnny Walker.

I will re-taste the ones I have and report back so you can analyze!

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lcpfratn
Thanks for this question. I will get back to you.
I currently have on hand: Balvenie 15, Glenlivet 21, and Compass Box Spice Tree. I've also tried Aberlour 12 and an obscure Asia only Johnny Walker.
I will re-taste the ones I have and report back so you can analyze!

You’ve certainly got several there that are worthy contenders. I’m not a huge fan of the Aberlour 12, but I love A’bunadh even though it’s NAS. It’s a sherry bomb of a Scotch at cask strength!

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Rick M.

Most Scottish single malts are double distilled (Hazelburn and Auchentoshan are a couple of triple distilled exceptions that come to mind) while Midleton (Irish Distillers) and Bushmills triple distill (Cooley, in the Irish Republic, double distills).   Midleton makes single potstill from malted and unmalted barley.  Unmalted barley gives a spicy, oily texture I love.

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kevinbrink
1 hour ago, Rick M. said:

Most Scottish single malts are double distilled (Hazelburn and Auchentoshan are a couple of triple distilled exceptions that come to mind) while Midleton (Irish Distillers) and Bushmills triple distill (Cooley, in the Irish Republic, double distills).   Midleton makes single potstill from malted and unmalted barley.  Unmalted barley gives a spicy, oily texture I love.

This right here was exactly what I was going to say, really knowing what Irish whiskies you have had and enjoyed is helpful since there are a few different types of Irish, Single Pot Still (blend of malted and unmalted Barley), Single Malt, Single Grain, and a bunch of different blends of the three. 

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flahute
5 hours ago, kevinbrink said:

This right here was exactly what I was going to say, really knowing what Irish whiskies you have had and enjoyed is helpful since there are a few different types of Irish, Single Pot Still (blend of malted and unmalted Barley), Single Malt, Single Grain, and a bunch of different blends of the three. 

Ones I like are Jameson 18, Redbreast 12 (regular and cask strength), Powers John Lane 12yr, and a Tullamore Dew 14yr (finished in a number of different casks) that I tried for the first time last night.

One that I've tried that didn't do much for me is Tullamore Dew Phoenix. That was a while ago so to be fair I should try it again because my palate is certainly different now.

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kevinbrink
3 hours ago, flahute said:

Ones I like are Jameson 18, Redbreast 12 (regular and cask strength), Powers John Lane 12yr, and a Tullamore Dew 14yr (finished in a number of different casks) that I tried for the first time last night.

One that I've tried that didn't do much for me is Tullamore Dew Phoenix. That was a while ago so to be fair I should try it again because my palate is certainly different now.

Tullamore Dew Phoenix to me has that Vitamin flavor a lot of people find in Dickel. For themost part everything you like has had at least some portion single pot still whiskey, the one exception being the Tullamore Dew 14, I haven't had it so I'm not totally familiar with the profile but I've had plenty of the old 10 year single malt, I'd say you should give Scotch another shot Auchentoshan 12 would be a good starting place. 

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evasive
I'm by no means an expert but here's a couple of things I'm pretty sure of.....maybe, possibly, sort of sure:
 
Scotch uses malted barley whereas Irish will also use unmalted barley 
Scotch is normally twice distilled, Irish triple distilled
 
You might want to wait until the intelligent guys post before you believe anything I've said here.


this is the Cliff’s Notes. When you zoom in, there’s a fair amount of variety in Irish and in Scotch. There are always complicating details, but this gets the gist of it.

To me, Irish brings out the flavor in the barley. Scotch brings out the flavors in the peat, the smoke, or the sea. I’m more about the Islay malts, but there are some Irish bottles l like, too.

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GaryT

I don't think I can add any facts not already shared above (Irish uses the 'e' in whiskey - but hasn't impacted the flavor in my experience!), but for my money I find the triple-distillation to make the Irish whiskey more on the smooth/clean side than I prefer.  I usually prefer the double-distilled whiskies.  There is a lot more regional influence on Scotch to me than with Irish, which I find appealing as well.  The Redbreast 12yr CS is one of my favorite Irish whiskies.  Have you tried an independent bottling of single malt with some age but at cask strength?  I know when I started into Scotch, it was the lower proof that was a turn-off (coming from bourbon, the flavor intensity even at 80 proof is night/day to a similarly proofed Scotch IMHO).  

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Marekv8

A nice Hazelburn 12yo would be worth a try-- typically effective cask pairings and strong in character for the ABV (natural color and NCF).

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Vosgar
14 hours ago, GaryT said:

Have you tried an independent bottling of single malt with some age but at cask strength?  I know when I started into Scotch, it was the lower proof that was a turn-off (coming from bourbon, the flavor intensity even at 80 proof is night/day to a similarly proofed Scotch IMHO).  

^^^^THIS!^^^^

In my more limited experience with Scotch, the independent bottlings at cask strength have been my favorites. (other than Lag 16, which is always outstanding)

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mosugoji64

I, too, appreciate you asking this question, Steve. While I've enjoyed many Irish whiskies, the only Scotches that have pleased my taste buds have been on the older side and commanded a price that made them not worth consideration. Peated Scotch has always been a big turn-off as I smell enough iodine and band-aid at work. That's the last thing I want in my glass! Without peat, though, I never knew why Irish and Scotch whiskies were so different so this discussion is a great idea.

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EarthQuake

I am by no means an expert, but went to Ireland recently and learned a thing or two on distillery tours at Midleton and Kilbeggan, and sampled probably 30 or so different Irish whiskies at distilleries and bars around Ireland.

 

There are relatively few producers of Irish whiskey, namely the big three: Midleton, Cooley, and Bushmills. Tullamore has started to produce their own whiskey but currently sources from Midelton. Kilbeggan (part of the Cooley family) produces a small amount of whiskey at the newly refurbished distillery. Teeling has started to produce their own and I think they may be bottling some now, but their older lines are sourced from Cooley and others. There are a handful of smaller craft style operations like Dingle and West Cork as well. So most of the brands you'll see on the shelf probably come from one of only a few sources.

 

The US is the largest market for Irish whiskey, so they took a big hit during prohibition, with most of their distilleries shutting down and many of the ones remaining teaming up to form larger corporations like Midleton. The situation was not all that dissimilar to what happened to many of the distilleries here in the states after prohibition and during the glut years.

 

Most Irish whiskey is blended from lighter column still grain whiskey, and heavier pot still (generally barley, some % of malted and some unmalted), not unlike Rum production where light and heavy rums are blended for the final product. The English imposed high taxes on malted barley, so cheaper grains and unmalted barley became more common. Though specific mashbills or what grains are in a grain whiskey isn't generally disclosed. As mentioned above, Irish whiskey is generally triple distilled but this is not always the case (Cooley).

 

The lighter column still whiskey has some similarities to Canadian and American whiskey, as well as Scotch grain whiskey. It typically comes off the still at a very high proof (180-ish?). Pot Still Irish has similarities to unpeated malted Scotch whisky, so there are often similarities to Speyside and Highlands Scotches. Pot distillate tends to come off the still at a much lower proof (I can't recall now but I think closer to 120-130 or so). Something like your basic Jameson will be a blend of mostly column still grain whiskey and some pot still, aged in both bourbon and sherry casks for 5 years.

 

Irish whiskey tends to be fairly light in style (though this is less true for pot still), so the vast majority of flavor comes from the barrel. By and large this mean bourbon barrels, but they use a lot of sherry barrels and the occasional port or misc wine barrel as well. So again, there are some similarities to Canadian whiskey production. Aging and barrel use is pretty similar to Scotch overall, though peated Scotch gets more of its flavor from the peating process and the barrel usually takes a back seat. Peat tends to really assert itself and will usually be the biggest difference in flavor profile when comparing a highly peated Scotch to an unpeated Scotch or Irish.

 

Personally I am not much of a fan of the lighter column still dominate Irish blends like Jameson. Though Jameson 18 Bow Street (cask strength) impressed me - not enough to buy a bottle mind you, but it's a good one to try if you ever spot it at a bar.

 

I tend to gravitate towards Single Pot Still. The Redbreast line from Midleton is one of my favorites, Redbreast 12 year cask strength is a damn near perfect Irish whiskey in my mind, and very good value for the money. Redbreast 15 is quite good as well, and the 12 year is very respectable and a good intro for anyone looking to branch out beyond Jameson et al. Midleton produces a few different Single Pot Still lines. Redbreast, Yellow Spot, and Powers John's Lane are all 12 year old Single Pot Still produced at Midleton. Apparently the biggest difference between Redbreast 12 and Powers John's Lane is that Redbreast uses more sherry casks, and Powers uses more bourbon casks. That's somewhat of an over simplification I'm sure, they mentioned how they cut the tails differently for Powers to give it a spicier profile.

 

Tyrconnel is another nice Single Pot Still Irish, produced at Cooley. They have a number of different expressions aged (or finished? it wasn't entirely clear) in different cask types.

 

Teeling makes (or bottles I might say) some great stuff. They had some interesting stuff in the gift shop, like a 10 year old barrel proof sherry cask single pot still that you could bottle yourself (I absolutely did). And the Barbazon line is quite good, though I'm not sure if it has made it to the states yet. The standard Teeling Small Batch is a good step up from Jameson etc, but a bit expensive for what it is in my mind. A bit of history here: John Teeling purchased an industrial alcohol plant and converted it to whiskey production, what is now Cooley, and then eventually sold it to Beam Suntory. Teeling's sons then opened Teeling, and part of the deal was that the sons were able to take some 15,000 barrels with them to start the new brand. 

 

I learned a lot on the tip but my general opinion is that Bourbon > Rye > Peated Scotch > Irish & Unpeated Scotch (tie)

Edited by EarthQuake
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flahute
18 hours ago, GaryT said:

I don't think I can add any facts not already shared above (Irish uses the 'e' in whiskey - but hasn't impacted the flavor in my experience!), but for my money I find the triple-distillation to make the Irish whiskey more on the smooth/clean side than I prefer.  I usually prefer the double-distilled whiskies.  There is a lot more regional influence on Scotch to me than with Irish, which I find appealing as well.  The Redbreast 12yr CS is one of my favorite Irish whiskies.  Have you tried an independent bottling of single malt with some age but at cask strength?  I know when I started into Scotch, it was the lower proof that was a turn-off (coming from bourbon, the flavor intensity even at 80 proof is night/day to a similarly proofed Scotch IMHO).  

 

4 hours ago, Vosgar said:

^^^^THIS!^^^^

In my more limited experience with Scotch, the independent bottlings at cask strength have been my favorites. (other than Lag 16, which is always outstanding)

Do tell my friends. Which independent bottlings would you recommend (if it's even possible to still get them)?

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flahute
21 minutes ago, EarthQuake said:

I am by no means an expert, but went to Ireland recently and learned a thing or two on distillery tours at Midleton and Kilbeggan, and sampled probably 30 or so different Irish whiskies at distilleries and bars around Ireland.

 

There are relatively few producers of Irish whiskey, namely the big three: Midleton, Cooley, and Bushmills. Tullamore has started to produce their own whiskey but currently sources from Midelton. Kilbeggan (part of the Cooley family) produces a small amount of whiskey at the newly refurbished distillery. Teeling has started to produce their own and I think they may be bottling some now, but their older lines are sourced from Cooley and others. There are a handful of smaller craft style operations like Dingle and West Cork as well. So most of the brands you'll see on the shelf probably come from one of only a few sources.

 

The US is the largest market for Irish whiskey, so they took a big hit during prohibition, with most of their distilleries shutting down and many of the ones remaining teaming up to form larger corporations like Midleton. The situation was not all that dissimilar to what happened to many of the distilleries here in the states after prohibition and during the glut years.

 

Most Irish whiskey is blended from lighter column still grain whiskey, and heavier pot still (generally barley, some % of malted and some unmalted), not unlike Rum production where light and heavy rums are blended for the final product. The English imposed high taxes on malted barley, so cheaper grains and unmalted barley became more common. Though specific mashbills or what grains are in a grain whiskey isn't generally disclosed. As mentioned above, Irish whiskey is generally triple distilled but this is not always the case (Cooley).

 

The lighter column still whiskey has some similarities to Canadian and American whiskey, as well as Scotch grain whiskey. It typically comes off the still at a very high proof (180-ish?). Pot Still Irish has similarities to unpeated malted Scotch whisky, so there are often similarities to Speyside and Highlands Scotches. Single Pot tends to come off the still at a much lower proof (I can't recall now but I think closer to 120-130 or so). Something like your basic Jameson will be a blend of mostly column still grain whiskey and some pot still, aged in both bourbon and sherry casks for 5 years.

 

Irish whiskey tends to be fairly light in style (though this is less true for pot still), so the vast majority of flavor comes from the barrel. By and large this mean bourbon barrels, but they use a lot of sherry barrels as well. So again, there are some similarities to Canadian whiskey production. Aging and barrel use is pretty similar to Scotch overall as well, though peated Scotch gets more of its flavor from the peating process and the barrel usually takes a back seat.

 

Personally I am not much of a fan of the lighter column still dominate Irish blends like Jameson. Though Jameson 18 Bow Street (cask strength) impressed me - not even to buy a bottle mind you, but it's a good one to try if you ever spot it at a bar.

 

I tend to gravitate towards Single Pot Still. The Redbreast line from Midleton is one of my favorites, Redbreast 12 year cask strength is a damn near perfect Irish whiskey in my mind, and very good value for the money. Redbreast 15 is quite good as well, and the 12 year is very respectable and a good intro for anyone looking to branch out beyond Jameson et al. Midleton produces a few different Single Pot Still lines. Redbreast, Yellow Spot, and Powers John's Lane are all 12 year old Single Pot Still produced at Midleton. Apparently the biggest difference between Redbreast 12 and Powers John's Lane is that Redbreast uses more sherry casks, and Powers uses more bourbon casks. That's somewhat of an over simplification I'm sure, they mentioned how they cut the tails differently for Powers to give it a spicier profile.

 

Tyrconnel is another nice Single Pot Still Irish, produced at Cooley. They have a number of different expressions aged (or finished? it wasn't entirely clear) in different cask types.

 

Teeling makes (or bottles I might say) some great stuff. They had some interesting stuff in the gift shop, like a 10 year old barrel proof sherry cask single pot still that you could bottle yourself (I absolutely did). And the Barbazon line is quite good, though I'm not sure if it has made it to the states yet. The standard Teeling Small Batch is a good step up from Jameson etc, but a bit expensive for what it is in my mind. A bit of history here: John Teeling purchased an industrial alcohol plant and converted it to whiskey production, what is now Cooley, and then eventually sold it to Beam Suntory. Teeling's sons then opened Teeling, and part of the deal was that the sons were able to take some 15,000 barrels with them to start the new brand. 

 

This is an amazing post that I'm going to have to read like three or four times to get it all. THANK YOU!

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lcpfratn
Do tell my friends. Which independent bottlings would you recommend (if it's even possible to still get them)?

Gordon & Macphail and Signatory are two independent bottlers that are known for having some nice cask strength selections with good age for the money.
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Vosgar
6 hours ago, lcpfratn said:


Gordon & Macphail and Signatory are two independent bottlers that are known for having some nice cask strength selections with good age for the money.

^^^Agree with this ^^^  Another good one is That Boutique-Y Whisky Co., although their bottles are rather pricey and only 375ml. I'm not sure how available they are nationwide but the selections I've bought have been stellar.

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BigRich

There seems to be a general undertone that for some reason if you like bourbon and/or Irish whiskey that you should like scotch and the concern is that maybe you just don’t understand how/why to like it.

While there are similarities to other whiskey types, scotch is it’s own beast. And to me, it has the broadest spectrum of flavor and nuance. That said, it’s not for everyone. Some people just don’t like it and that’s okay. If you’ve done your due diligence and just can’t get into it that is a matter of personal taste. Life is too short to force yourself to keep trying something that you don’t like.

Added bonus...more scotch for me ;)

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Marekv8

One expression that seems to resonate well with bourbon drinkers (and very polarizing to Scotch fans) is the annual "Unpeated Style" cask strength release of Caol Ila. Certainly not lacking in proof or intensity of character— and without any trickbag finishes or double maturation.

 

IMG_2845.thumb.jpg.1ed4a4d10ddd7a10b7c9be566deb0999.jpg

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Rick M.
14 hours ago, lcpfratn said:


Gordon & Macphail and Signatory are two independent bottlers that are known for having some nice cask strength selections with good age for the money.

Adelphi and Cadenheads are another pair of reliable independent bottlers.

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Vosgar
10 hours ago, Marekv8 said:

One expression that seems to resonate well with bourbon drinkers (and very polarizing to Scotch fans) is the annual "Unpeated Style" cask strength release of Caol Ila. Certainly not lacking in proof or intensity of character— and without any trickbag finishes or double maturation.

Couldn't agree more! I fell in love with it about 1-1/2 yrs ago when I bought a 2015 release. I now have on hand the 2011, 15, 16 and 17 releases, and will soon have the 2012, 14 and 18. Delicious whisky IMO. 

 

Another one recommended to me by SB member Stu was Old Pulteney 21, which unfortunately has been discontinued. If you happen to find one sitting on the shelf somewhere for around $100, it would be a buy in my book. (If you find one and don't like it, let me know. I'll take care of you :) )

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