Jump to content
flahute

BOTM 12/19: Stagg Jr. (and friends)

Recommended Posts

JoeTerp
29 minutes ago, flahute said:

This. In early December I read a good review of it and told myself I should go get some. Got busy. Then Breaking Bourbon calls it bourbon of the year and there's an immediate run for it on all local stores. My local calls the distributor to get some more and they tell him it's now allocated. Ridiculous. It's the phenomena I talk about here frequently - that all of the new blood in bourbon has no interest in taking the journey of trying out everything to find out what they like. They want people to tell them what's good so they can go straight to the top.

Those of us who have been doing this for a very long time don't pay attention to any of the bourbon blogs/websites but the new blood follows them like gospel. 

This run on Stagg Jr. is yet another sign that the boom is still going very, very strong.

I can tell someone just got into bourbon if they're aggressively hunting Blanton's.

  • I like it 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
flahute
48 minutes ago, JoeTerp said:

I can tell someone just got into bourbon if they're aggressively hunting Blanton's.

This is true.

  • I like it 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CUfan99
7 hours ago, JoeTerp said:

I think it's pretty silly when Fred Minnick, Jim Murray, or the San Fran awards lead to sudden shifts in market perception, but at least I understand it a little bit.  Breaking Bourbon influencing consumer behavior is a whole new level of insanity to me.

I was tatering for batch 12 before Breaking Bourbon’s reveal. 

5 hours ago, flahute said:

This. In early December I read a good review of it and told myself I should go get some. Got busy. Then Breaking Bourbon calls it bourbon of the year and there's an immediate run for it on all local stores. My local calls the distributor to get some more and they tell him it's now allocated. Ridiculous. It's the phenomena I talk about here frequently - that all of the new blood in bourbon has no interest in taking the journey of trying out everything to find out what they like. They want people to tell them what's good so they can go straight to the top.

Those of us who have been doing this for a very long time don't pay attention to any of the bourbon blogs/websites but the new blood follows them like gospel. 

This run on Stagg Jr. is yet another sign that the boom is still going very, very strong.

When you’ve never even nosed a BTAC and you hear from multiple places that a semi-obtainable/affordable bottle is similar I bet you would want to get it too. Trying out everything is impossible in this market unless you’re much more well off than most, but I understand your point about figuring out what you like of what’s available. I’ve done that. WT101, Rare Breed, and 4R have been settled on as favorites, but sometimes us peons want a little taste of the good life too. 

  • I like it 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Richnimrod
1 hour ago, CUfan99 said:

Trying out everything is impossible in this market unless you’re much more well off than most, but I understand your point about figuring out what you like of what’s available. I’ve done that. WT101, Rare Breed, and 4R have been settled on as favorites, but sometimes us peons want a little taste of the good life too. 

I feel your pain, CUfan99.  😪    

I am not a wealthy person; but, was fortunate to get into the hobby early enough to allow at least tastes, and usually a bottle of nearly all the brands/releases (that are now so difficult and expensive to source), so I don't feel "deprived" of a worthwhile experience.     But, I was also lucky enough several years ago to get to Bardstown at the appropriate time and share an amazing array of LE's and Dusty's; bottles offered by folx from this very community... all for the price of merely offering my bottles in return (though most of my bottles were far less rare and collectible) for their consumption.

 

At this point, possibly your best strategy is to make friends with some folx who are willing to share some of their good fortune, either because they can afford to be generous, or because the bottles, though 'special' now, were not all that dear back in the time they were acquired... or mainly because they are kind and generous spirits who have found it as enjoyable to help make someone's small dream come true and share such experience with 'em. 

For me, this has been a lovely side-effect of joining this board.    Now, at least some of my bottles have become 'sought after', and I'm pretty sure enjoyed by others, less fortunate or earlier in their Bourbon journey.   I find great satisfaction, and indeed joy, in sharing such times.   

 

Be generous with what you have.   Be truly thankful for what is offered.    ...And, share the experiences!  (That last part turns out to be the best part.)

 

I'll let you in a well-kept secret CUfan99.   The flavors and aromas of even the transcendent Bourbon experiences I've enjoyed are only percentage points 'above' just plain, good quality, Bourbons.   ...And, there are a great many of those which are still easily-sourced, and for reasonable coin.   ...A word to the wise.   

It's certainly OK to seek pinnacle experiences; but don't make the actual tasting the goal.   The journey is the best part of this hobby, not the destination.

  • I like it 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
flahute
9 hours ago, CUfan99 said:

Trying out everything is impossible in this market unless you’re much more well off than most, 

I disagree unless you include all of the LE's in "everything".

What I mean is this: all of us who have been here for a long time do of course get excited about and pursue the LE's. What we also do is work our way through the entirety of each distillers portfolio to find out not only what we like, but also what we like that is accessible and affordable.

Now if you want to do this in the span of a few weeks or a month, than yes you have to be well off to buy that much whiskey in a short amount of time. That's not what we do though. It's a journey and it's a fun one.

My point about the new blood is that most of what I see online is that they aren't interested in the journey. They have no patience for it. They want to be told what is the best and as soon as they are they run out to clear shelves. Then they post their victories on social media so they can get all the attaboys. These guys never learn what they really like because they don't have the confidence to find out for themselves. These are the same guys that refer to much beloved bourbons here as an afterthought, saying things like "that's OK as a drinker" while they push each other out of the way to get a bottle of MGP Smoke Wagon for $175. 

  • I like it 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CUfan99
4 hours ago, flahute said:

I disagree unless you include all of the LE's in "everything".

What I mean is this: all of us who have been here for a long time do of course get excited about and pursue the LE's. What we also do is work our way through the entirety of each distillers portfolio to find out not only what we like, but also what we like that is accessible and affordable.

Now if you want to do this in the span of a few weeks or a month, than yes you have to be well off to buy that much whiskey in a short amount of time. That's not what we do though. It's a journey and it's a fun one.

My point about the new blood is that most of what I see online is that they aren't interested in the journey. They have no patience for it. They want to be told what is the best and as soon as they are they run out to clear shelves. Then they post their victories on social media so they can get all the attaboys. These guys never learn what they really like because they don't have the confidence to find out for themselves. These are the same guys that refer to much beloved bourbons here as an afterthought, saying things like "that's OK as a drinker" while they push each other out of the way to get a bottle of MGP Smoke Wagon for $175. 

Did you say Smoke Wagon!? I lost all train of thought. 

  • I like it 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Richnimrod
43 minutes ago, CUfan99 said:

Did you say Smoke Wagon!? I lost all train of thought. 

"Jerk that Smoke Wagon and go to work!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
flahute
58 minutes ago, CUfan99 said:

Did you say Smoke Wagon!? I lost all train of thought. 

Lol. I did and I’m not making it up. It’s a “distillery” in Nevada. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kepler
On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2020 at 9:34 PM, JoeTerp said:

I think it's pretty silly when Fred Minnick, Jim Murray, or the San Fran awards lead to sudden shifts in market perception, but at least I understand it a little bit.  Breaking Bourbon influencing consumer behavior is a whole new level of insanity to me.

 

I agree.  At least Minnick and the others have some kind of proven palates.  I'm not so sure about those dufuses from Breaking Bourbon.  What are their credentials anyway.  I find a lot of their recommendations are not in alignment with my own palate anyway; I for one don't trust BB as a source for reviews.  Top many misses for me to take them seriously anymore.  However their release calendar is useful I guess,

Edited by Kepler
  • I like it 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
smokinjoe
12 hours ago, Kepler said:

 

I agree.  At least Minnick and the others have some kind of proven palates.  I'm not so sure about those dufuses from Breaking Bourbon.  What are their credentials anyway.  I find a lot of their recommendations are not in alignment with my own palate anyway; I for one don't trust BB as a source for reviews.  Top many misses for me to take them seriously anymore.  However their release calendar is useful I guess,

I could add about a dozen, or more, of these 3-4th tier people who are in the blogger/podcaster circle jerk.   Their reviews typically sound like it’s from a template where they just fill in words to make a point or take a “position”, and not just give a review.  Then they pimp each other’s blogs to create influence momentum, and help each other get a share of the Kentucky Bourbon ”Golden Pie”.  The book pimping is the worst...😫.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Spade

Should retitle this thread, "get off my lawn," lol.

  • I like it 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
smokinjoe

OK, I’ll admit that I liked Batch 1... 

Going in, I figured it wasn’t going to be like the Daddy GTS, and it wasn’t.  What others thought a hot mess, I rather appreciated that young ruttin’ buck kick in the face profile.  Buffalo Trace whiskey with decent age and barrel proof.  I still think too many people were thinking they were going to get something close to the ~15 yr GTSes, and were disappointed it was more...rambunctious.  After that, my tastes of it have been rather limited, and I don’t see it often.  But, I buy when I do.  Solid BP whiskey.  

  • I like it 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Old Dusty
13 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

OK, I’ll admit Batch 1... a hot mess

Fixed your post 😉

  • I like it 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
smokinjoe
6 minutes ago, Old Dusty said:

Fixed your post 😉

That narrative is strong and often repeated, I’ll admit...  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Old Dusty

Joe, I assumed you were taking a contrary position for discussion’s sake. The correct answer is that batches 1 and 2 were both a hot mess. Jacked up ethanol bombs. Lighter fluid.  Everclear with a tan.  Nigh undrinkable by all but the heartiest of souls with Teflon tongues, pvc esophaguses and iron stomachs. 
 

By the third batch they were getting it dialed in. Now they are fantastic. And batch 12 from last fall is getting rave reviews. Poor man’s BTAC and all of that. Though I believe 10 was the last I owned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vosgar
3 minutes ago, Old Dusty said:

The correct answer is that batches 1 and 2 were both a hot mess. Jacked up ethanol bombs. Lighter fluid.  Everclear with a tan.  Nigh undrinkable by all but the heartiest of souls with Teflon tongues, pvc esophaguses and iron stomachs. 

If only we could get honest and entertaining reviews like this out of Minnick, Murray and the rest. Very descriptive while actually using words and phrases that everyone can relate to. Outstanding!   (I especially love "Everclear with a tan")

  • I like it 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Old Dusty

Gary I hope I wasn’t too subtle. I intended to convey my mild dislike of the first two batches while leaving room for other opinions on the quality of the spirit. I probably should have taken a harder line.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
smokinjoe
38 minutes ago, Old Dusty said:

Joe, I assumed you were taking a contrary position for discussion’s sake. The correct answer is that batches 1 and 2 were both a hot mess. Jacked up ethanol bombs. Lighter fluid.  Everclear with a tan.  Nigh undrinkable by all but the heartiest of souls with Teflon tongues, pvc esophaguses and iron stomachs. 
 

By the third batch they were getting it dialed in. Now they are fantastic. And batch 12 from last fall is getting rave reviews. Poor man’s BTAC and all of that. Though I believe 10 was the last I owned. 

You have learned it well...Right down to, “The correct answer is...” 😒

  • I like it 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BigRich
Gary I hope I wasn’t too subtle. I intended to convey my mild dislike of the first two batches while leaving room for other opinions on the quality of the spirit. I probably should have taken a harder line.
 

I’m still not sure what you’re getting at.[emoji3166]
  • I like it 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Old Dusty

Exactly! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shizzy

First batch I ever found was batch 7 about a year ago while traveling for work.  I liked it as a barrel proof offering.  Enough to know that if I came across any of the newer releases that I'd be all in at MSRP.  The next batch happened to be batch 12.  I loved it and immediately sought more bottles.  This was long before anybody was making a fuss online.  I managed to secure two more bottles before the buzz sparked a fire through the tater tot forest.  Have gotten batch 13 recently and it's disjointed a bit.  I'm trying to be patient to see if it will come together, but right now it's like a buckin' bronco on a meth binge.  

 

I find that for the price these releases are slightly more consistent than Booker's and less consistent than ECBPECBP for me just seems to be varying degrees of good.  Always.  But I digress.

 

CUFan, if you want a sample of 12, let me know.  Happy to make those tater dreams all buttery for you. 

Edited by Shizzy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shizzy
On 1/10/2020 at 7:05 PM, flahute said:

Lol. I did and I’m not making it up. It’s a “distillery” in Nevada. 

 

On 1/10/2020 at 1:06 PM, flahute said:

I disagree unless you include all of the LE's in "everything".

What I mean is this: all of us who have been here for a long time do of course get excited about and pursue the LE's. What we also do is work our way through the entirety of each distillers portfolio to find out not only what we like, but also what we like that is accessible and affordable.

Now if you want to do this in the span of a few weeks or a month, than yes you have to be well off to buy that much whiskey in a short amount of time. That's not what we do though. It's a journey and it's a fun one.

My point about the new blood is that most of what I see online is that they aren't interested in the journey. They have no patience for it. They want to be told what is the best and as soon as they are they run out to clear shelves. Then they post their victories on social media so they can get all the attaboys. These guys never learn what they really like because they don't have the confidence to find out for themselves. These are the same guys that refer to much beloved bourbons here as an afterthought, saying things like "that's OK as a drinker" while they push each other out of the way to get a bottle of MGP Smoke Wagon for $175. 

The 10 to 12 year MGP whiskey is tasty (a la Smoke Wagon).  I don't really care where it comes from, but it's clear it will be coming via some start up who is still aging their stuff and needs to make money in the interim or from NDPs who just want to make a quick buck in the industry as a rectifier.  Not that different than what Julian does, so I don't understand a lot of the posts that trend towards the negative when a buzz around a certain MGP product line pokes its head up in a new part of the country.  Who cares?  Is it good?  Yeah?  Drink it and don't fuss.  Now, one could argue that the prices are ridiculous and I would concur they've gotten to the point of absurdity, but that has more to do with basic economics than it does the quality of the whiskey.  Sure you can still buy some 14-15 year old Knob Creek picks, but even those are starting to dry up (albeit at a much more affordable price point) but I find these to be hit or miss.  Four Roses single barrels have been getting younger and prices of those are going up (at least in my area).  MGP doesn't sell the older stuff as readily anymore.  Even the younger whiskey has gotten more expensive as they've tried to start their own product line.  Personally, I think they should just go back to doing what they do best.  Contract distilling and making good whiskies.  It's clear that the oncoming glut and their lapse in letting other contract distillers into their once monopolized customer base while they fantasized about their own product line has hurt their bottom line.  As evidenced by their declining stock price.  I personally would hate to see them go out of business and have to sell to the likes of a Diageo would would inevitably f*%k it up.  For these reasons, I celebrate the MGP whiskey.  Regardless of where it's coming from. 

 

It is about the journey.  But some take different paths than others.  Some dive so hard into it that they immerse themselves in the media side of the business in a effort to learn more.  And hey, it's easy right?  Certainly a LOT easier than spending thousands of dollars over months or years.  Easier than going to the bar every weekend to try a few different bourbons that may or may not be on the shelf.  Gaining another's perspective and finding someone to align your palate with is in my opinion a satisfactory way of developing an idea of what one likes.  After all, isn't this how many of us here at SB base our store picks we purchase?  Instead of going store to store to store to find the guy who makes picks that you like, isn't it easier to find a community online that is talking about some great store picks they found, you try them and you find that you like them too?  Flahute, I know who you're referencing and I get it, but it still bugs me when I see a snide remark that targets something I rather enjoy.  Now, could this have just as easily been "push each other out of the way to get a bottle of Weller Full Proof for $250"?  If so, then I will retreat from my soapbox.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
flahute
31 minutes ago, Shizzy said:

 

The 10 to 12 year MGP whiskey is tasty (a la Smoke Wagon).  I don't really care where it comes from, but it's clear it will be coming via some start up who is still aging their stuff and needs to make money in the interim or from NDPs who just want to make a quick buck in the industry as a rectifier.  Not that different than what Julian does, so I don't understand a lot of the posts that trend towards the negative when a buzz around a certain MGP product line pokes its head up in a new part of the country.  Who cares?  Is it good?  Yeah?  Drink it and don't fuss.  Now, one could argue that the prices are ridiculous and I would concur they've gotten to the point of absurdity, but that has more to do with basic economics than it does the quality of the whiskey.  Sure you can still buy some 14-15 year old Knob Creek picks, but even those are starting to dry up (albeit at a much more affordable price point) but I find these to be hit or miss.  Four Roses single barrels have been getting younger and prices of those are going up (at least in my area).  MGP doesn't sell the older stuff as readily anymore.  Even the younger whiskey has gotten more expensive as they've tried to start their own product line.  Personally, I think they should just go back to doing what they do best.  Contract distilling and making good whiskies.  It's clear that the oncoming glut and their lapse in letting other contract distillers into their once monopolized customer base while they fantasized about their own product line has hurt their bottom line.  As evidenced by their declining stock price.  I personally would hate to see them go out of business and have to sell to the likes of a Diageo would would inevitably f*%k it up.  For these reasons, I celebrate the MGP whiskey.  Regardless of where it's coming from. 

 

It is about the journey.  But some take different paths than others.  Some dive so hard into it that they immerse themselves in the media side of the business in a effort to learn more.  And hey, it's easy right?  Certainly a LOT easier than spending thousands of dollars over months or years.  Easier than going to the bar every weekend to try a few different bourbons that may or may not be on the shelf.  Gaining another's perspective and finding someone to align your palate with is in my opinion a satisfactory way of developing an idea of what one likes.  After all, isn't this how many of us here at SB base our store picks we purchase?  Instead of going store to store to store to find the guy who makes picks that you like, isn't it easier to find a community online that is talking about some great store picks they found, you try them and you find that you like them too?  Flahute, I know who you're referencing and I get it, but it still bugs me when I see a snide remark that targets something I rather enjoy.  Now, could this have just as easily been "push each other out of the way to get a bottle of Weller Full Proof for $250"?  If so, then I will retreat from my soapbox.

I will say to you the same thing I say to everyone who defends the prices the NDP whiskey by saying "who cares if it tastes good." My answer is YOU should care. Do you know that you can likely get a very similar whiskey for half the price or less? It may not be in as pretty a bottle but it's out there. Most don't want to hear that. If you like Smoke Wagon and go into a purchase of it with eyes wide open than more power to you. I have no problem with that. My snide remark refers to the people who don't know any better because they don't want to know any better and who are chasing this bottle because someone they don't know on the internet told them they should. You should know that so if that bugs you I'm not sure why. You say the prices have more to do with economics than the quality of the whiskey. Exactly. That doesn't mean one must participate in those economics. I will buy 9-10 yr RRSiB for $60 and I like it a lot better anyway. 10yr old Henry McKenna sat on shelves for $35 and was overlooked. Then someone told all these people they should drink it and you know what happened.

 

You mention Julian. He sells his highly sought after 10 yr for $70. 12yr for $80. 15yr for $120. He is the only one selling the distillate he has at those ages. Lots of people out there are selling the MGP distillate. It's not that special. The reason it costs what it does is because MGP got greedy and jacked up the prices on their barrels. It's why Smooth Ambler stopped selling it a few years back. MGP's problems are self inflicted. 

 

You are correct that we find community here and that over time we learn what palates align with ours and that does help us with purchase decisions. And so we go out and find ourselves buying Old Grand Dad BIB and EWBIB. On the facebook groups everyone is telling each other to buy NDP MGP and all the allocated BT products which is why I see people going to secondary to buy Blanton's and all things Weller. And yes, people do push each other out of the way to pay too much for Weller FP and that is also dumb. Just as dumb as posting their "score" they overpaid for in search of all the "likes".

  • I like it 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shizzy
2 hours ago, flahute said:

I will say to you the same thing I say to everyone who defends the prices the NDP whiskey by saying "who cares if it tastes good." My answer is YOU should care. Do you know that you can likely get a very similar whiskey for half the price or less? It may not be in as pretty a bottle but it's out there. Most don't want to hear that. If you like Smoke Wagon and go into a purchase of it with eyes wide open than more power to you. I have no problem with that. My snide remark refers to the people who don't know any better because they don't want to know any better and who are chasing this bottle because someone they don't know on the internet told them they should. You should know that so if that bugs you I'm not sure why. You say the prices have more to do with economics than the quality of the whiskey. Exactly. That doesn't mean one must participate in those economics. I will buy 9-10 yr RRSiB for $60 and I like it a lot better anyway. 10yr old Henry McKenna sat on shelves for $35 and was overlooked. Then someone told all these people they should drink it and you know what happened.

 

You mention Julian. He sells his highly sought after 10 yr for $70. 12yr for $80. 15yr for $120. He is the only one selling the distillate he has at those ages. Lots of people out there are selling the MGP distillate. It's not that special. The reason it costs what it does is because MGP got greedy and jacked up the prices on their barrels. It's why Smooth Ambler stopped selling it a few years back. MGP's problems are self inflicted. 

 

You are correct that we find community here and that over time we learn what palates align with ours and that does help us with purchase decisions. And so we go out and find ourselves buying Old Grand Dad BIB and EWBIB. On the facebook groups everyone is telling each other to buy NDP MGP and all the allocated BT products which is why I see people going to secondary to buy Blanton's and all things Weller. And yes, people do push each other out of the way to pay too much for Weller FP and that is also dumb. Just as dumb as posting their "score" they overpaid for in search of all the "likes".

Fair points, sir.  I like variety.  Not the next best thing somebody says I need to have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
flahute
1 hour ago, Shizzy said:

Fair points, sir.  I like variety.  Not the next best thing somebody says I need to have.

It sounds to me like you are on the right path. Keep exploring.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.