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smokinjoe
14 minutes ago, BigRich said:


I’m curious how you guys define fear of missing out? Going to “illegal” lengths for the chance to taste something that you don’t readily have access to feels like FOMO to me.

I figure you’ve ordered something not locally available from a non-domestic whiskey purveyor?  If so, it’s not fear of missing out that drove you.  But rather, the opportunity to experience?  

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Kepler
10 hours ago, Bbstout said:

The Three Tier system is corrupt. Isn't this America...the land of the free?

Sorry, took the liberty to quote this middle section. 

Can you expand on the corruption of the three tier system? Is it corrupt because it is a three tier system or could a three tier system be legit?

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Richnimrod
8 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

I'm not sure his argument is FOMO, as we understand that to mean in this current bourbon market.  But, rather that the secondary market provides access of certain brands that may not be available to someone, otherwise.  Of course, I’m taking the legality aspect out of this entirely, but it’s not much different than purchasing Scotch, Irish, Japanese whiskies or rums, Armagnacs, or any other spirit from a Euro based retailer who provides (or provided...) shipping services to  a US individual.  

Joe, I highlighted part of your post to point out that (at least from my admittedly limited understanding of the 'secondary' market) there are folx selling on the black market (my preferred terminology. . . fewer letters to type!) who are certainly not "retailers"... so there is some notable difference, yes?

But, I take your point that many people buying on the black market are indeed seeking an otherwise unavailable experience, rather than just following current trends, or 'investing' against rising future demand and therefor profit.  Those folx, I dislike.   But, I guess, it's their $, their risk, and not really my business, since I'm not in that market.

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smokinjoe
28 minutes ago, Richnimrod said:

Joe, I highlighted part of your post to point out that (at least from my admittedly limited understanding of the 'secondary' market) there are folx selling on the black market (my preferred terminology. . . fewer letters to type!) who are certainly not "retailers"... so there is some notable difference, yes?

But, I take your point that many people buying on the black market are indeed seeking an otherwise unavailable experience, rather than just following current trends, or 'investing' against rising future demand and therefor profit.  Those folx, I dislike.   But, I guess, it's their $, their risk, and not really my business, since I'm not in that market.

Unfortunately, you ignored my caveat on the legality aspect of my statement at the beginning of the sentence you highlighted, as that certainly inferred licensed retailers v. Non licensed.  Regardless, my point was to differentiate between what I would understand FOMO to be, and ones personal desire to obtain an otherwise “ legal” product that they desire for what “we” may consider “legitimate” reasons.  

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Bbstout

Rich,

 

I respect your opinion but there are alot of "black markets".  Look at the legalization of marijuana. There has been a black market for years for recreational use as well as parents that didn't want to watch their children suffer from seizures. I know this is an extreme example but let individuals decide what they want to purchase. If nothing on the secondary interests you then I will be the first to congratulate you...You must have one hell of a bunker.

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Kepler

Illegal is illegal, no matter how you choose to rationalize it in your head.

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BottledInBond
1 hour ago, Kepler said:

Illegal is illegal, no matter how you choose to rationalize it in your head.

Sure. Driving 56 in a 55 zone is also illegal. Tossing a banana peal in the woods at a public park is illegal. Shooting off fireworks is illegal in my state. And ‘consenting adult A of legal drinking age’ selling a container of alcohol to ‘consenting adult B of legal drinking age’ whether or not there is a profit involved is also illegal. Lock all of those criminals up. 

Keep in mind that technically speaking, every time one member here says something like “I picked up bottle X for ‘other cool SB member Y’ this is also technically illegal if the receiving member pays the original buyer back $. The law doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not there is a profit, it just says you need to have a license to give someone else alcohol in exchange for cash. So it is also technically just as illegal if you are having a party, you run out of vermouth, and you walk over to your friendly neighbor and say “could I give you whatever you paid for a bottle of vermouth so I can keep making these Manhattans at my party?”. Terrible criminals, all of these are.

 

 

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Kepler

Yup

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Bbstout
2 hours ago, Kepler said:

Illegal is illegal, no matter how you choose to rationalize it in your head.

In the words of the great Lebowski. Well that's just like your opinion man.

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Richnimrod
10 hours ago, Bbstout said:

Rich,

 

I respect your opinion but there are alot of "black markets".  Look at the legalization of marijuana. There has been a black market for years for recreational use as well as parents that didn't want to watch their children suffer from seizures. I know this is an extreme example but let individuals decide what they want to purchase. If nothing on the secondary interests you then I will be the first to congratulate you...You must have one hell of a bunker.

I'm sorry; but I wonder what point(s) you're making here Bbstout.   

I'm aware that there are a great many 'things' and 'services' being sold or exchanged illegally through any number of 'markets'.    I wasn't advocating for, or even against anything, whatsoever; just offering my opinion of the situation as it pertains to the resale of alcoholic beverages (especially LE and 'dusty' Bourbons).     

As to your assertion about my stash being somehow 'a helluva' bunker, I don't see your point here either.   The bottles I have stashed would pale by comparison to many, many others' 'bunkers' I'm sure; but: so what?   As far as 'nothing interesting me', I'd love the opportunity to experience many of the Bourbons that could possibly obtained in these 'markets'; but choose to forgo these possibilities; and yet, my life seems full and rewarding with the experiences I've had and expect to have, and what bottles I can obtain, and share through traditional methods (retail-in-person purchases, sharing, etc.).    (And, I do except your congratulations! 😊

I choose not to participate in the black market(s) because of several reasons.   There are a great many legal hurdles that would need to be ignored before I'd make or take anything a sale I'd be comfortable engaging in: I just won't do it.   The prices being asked (from what I've gathered in hearing  from others) are just so far beyond what I'd ever consider; they are non-starters... for me. Obviously, others will disagree, and that's their decision, of course.    The secret, under-the-table nature of many of these transactions leads me a to a level of distrust in the authenticity of all the items on offer.   And, the payment options leave me unsure about safety and privacy.

That these markets exist is not a situation over which I expect (nor desire) any control.   I just feel like they are a detriment to stability and fairness in pricing, as they escalate a very high and artificial ceiling for these bottles.

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Bbstout
37 minutes ago, Richnimrod said:

I'm sorry; but I wonder what point(s) you're making here Bbstout.   

I'm aware that there are a great many 'things' and 'services' being sold or exchanged illegally through any number of 'markets'.    I wasn't advocating for, or even against anything, whatsoever; just offering my opinion of the situation as it pertains to the resale of alcoholic beverages (especially LE and 'dusty' Bourbons).     

As to your assertion about my stash being somehow 'a helluva' bunker, I don't see your point here either.   The bottles I have stashed would pale by comparison to many, many others' 'bunkers' I'm sure; but: so what?   As far as 'nothing interesting me', I'd love the opportunity to experience many of the Bourbons that could possibly obtained in these 'markets'; but choose to forgo these possibilities; and yet, my life seems full and rewarding with the experiences I've had and expect to have, and what bottles I can obtain, and share through traditional methods (retail-in-person purchases, sharing, etc.).    (And, I do except your congratulations! 😊

I choose not to participate in the black market(s) because of several reasons.   There are a great many legal hurdles that would need to be ignored before I'd make or take anything a sale I'd be comfortable engaging in: I just won't do it.   The prices being asked (from what I've gathered in hearing  from others) are just so far beyond what I'd ever consider; they are non-starters... for me. Obviously, others will disagree, and that's their decision, of course.    The secret, under-the-table nature of many of these transactions leads me a to a level of distrust in the authenticity of all the items on offer.   And, the payment options leave me unsure about safety and privacy.

That these markets exist is not a situation over which I expect (nor desire) any control.   I just feel like they are a detriment to stability and fairness in pricing, as they escalate a very high and artificial ceiling for these bottles.

 

We're all Good. You make some good points. There is a lot of fraud and greed out there but I have met and traded for a lot of outstanding stuff with a lot of enthusiasts that wouldn't be possible unless for social media. I think Minnick does a better job of explaining how I feel on this subject. I just read his blog post below:

 

"In a recent Bourbon Pursuit “Above the Char,” I mentioned how the majority of this country’s state attorneys general demanded the end of the secondary market on social media.

The Louisiana attorney general has taken it a step further and a local media outlet interviewed a “concerned teenager parent” who supports his stance.

This is nothing new. But this report is the first time we’ve seen a government official discussing the sale of empty Pappy Van Winkle bottles on eBay and linking them to counterfeiting.

Pay special attention to the language Louisiana Attorney General Landry uses: “What we’re hoping is that the platforms engage in self-regulation that they put in place controlled methods that we believe and work with us to make sure that those methods meet our standards.”

That sounds a lot like alcohol industry speak to me. But no teenager is going to buy $2,000 Pappy on Facebook.

I get that this nationwide crack down is going to happen whether I like it or not. So, all I ask is, why won’t states establish modern vintage laws so enthusiasts can lawfully purchases products they may not otherwise be able to get?

If you live in Maine, good luck getting a good bottle of anything! And get this, lawmakers, you can establish a way to generate more taxes. Just ask Kentucky."

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BottledInBond
8 hours ago, Kepler said:

Yup

Ah so are you claiming to have never broken a single law yourself, and that you are holier than every person who has ever broken any law, no matter how minor? Is that your stance here? 
 

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BottledInBond
9 hours ago, Kepler said:

Yup

Also curious, do you complain about the actions described above where one SB member picks up an extra bottle of something hard to find and subsequently passes that bottle off to another member for the same $ as he/she paid for it? You agreed that this would also be illegal right?

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parksmart

*** Full transparency - I’ve never used BottleSpot for anything other than looking longingly at some of the bottles offered.  I’ve also never had a FaceBook, Reddit, Instagram or other social media account, so have never participated in any buying or selling of liquor (except from authorized retailers).  ***

 

As an American born and raised here, I’ve never understood how some things should by legislation be freely and widely available to all without restriction (per a small but very strident minority of the population), yet other things should have full government intervention and “oversight” to restrict it from a majority of the population to the benefit of a small minority.  Why not restrict the sale of houses and equities?  “You bought that house or share of Apple for $XX dollars, so you can’t sell it for any profit whatsoever.  In fact, legally the only way you can transfer ownership to another party is if you give it to that person.  And technically, if the value of the gift is above $$XX, then the recipient has to declare it on their income taxes, and pay a portion of the value to the government.”

 

Yes, some will trot out the “we must save the children!” trope.  Except we all know that a minuscule fraction of underage kids might be connoisseurs enough (and could actually afford to throw down hundreds, let alone thousands, of dollars on a bottle), and the rest are simply not going online to load up on Pappy or BTAC for that big rager of a bash they’re hosting after the prom or when the ‘rents are outta town.  If they need handles of Fireball or Kessler or *** insert cheap bourbon ***, they’re gonna be resourceful enough to find someone who knows someone locally who can get it.   
 

I get that people who live in areas with better access to a steady stream of bottles want to keep a good thing going.  That’s human nature.  Just own it, instead of pointing to the illegality of a black market.  For folks who live in a bourbon desert (i.e. most of the US) or are intrigued with the taste of dusties, they view these constraints as draconian, and rightfully so IMO.  

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The Black Tot

I'd just like to prove that I can post in the middle of a heated discussion and be the chilled out one.

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RWBadley
1 hour ago, The Black Tot said:

I'd just like to prove that I can post in the middle of a heated discussion and be the chilled out one.

Yeah, so what's your problem?!

 

😁

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Kepler
5 hours ago, BottledInBond said:

Also curious, do you complain about the actions described above where one SB member picks up an extra bottle of something hard to find and subsequently passes that bottle off to another member for the same $ as he/she paid for it? You agreed that this would also be illegal right?

Easy there bub. Kindly tell where you saw me "complain." I was just pointing out a fact about legality.  And nice approach there, going on the offensive to attack me personally with your "holier than thou" crap just to divert the topic.

 

Seems like some on this thread are in a little bit of denial about the state of commerce of this product liquor. Chuck Cowdery has an excellent blog about it from December 2017 titled "Buyer beware" or something along those lines ...I recommend you read it because it might help you cope mentally with reality. I don't like the law either and but you don't see me contorting and trying to rationalize it just to suit my needs. Change the law instead of wasting energy attacking those who just point it out.

 

 

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BottledInBond
4 minutes ago, Kepler said:

Easy there bub. Kindly tell where you saw me "complain." I was just pointing out a fact about legality.  And nice approach there, going on the offensive to attack me personally with your "holier than thou" crap just to divert the topic.

 

Seems like some on this thread are in a little bit of denial about the state of commerce of this product liquor. Chuck Cowdery has an excellent blog about it from December 2017 titled "Buyer beware" or something along those lines ...I recommend you read it because it might help you cope mentally with reality. I don't like the law either and but you don't see me contorting and trying to rationalize it just to suit my needs. Change the law instead of wasting energy attacking those who just point it out.

 

 

Honestly sometimes my rants are about general topics and they land on on persons foot and I apologize for that. However, some people here can be pretty hypocritical about this topic, which is what I find to be tiresome. And again to be 100% fair to you, you may not fit into that camp at all. Maybe you have never once handed another human $ for a container of alcohol outside of a liquor store setting, or had an alcohol container shipped to (or you shipped to someone else) discreetly when one of the two states had laws against shipping liquor.

 

The reality though is that many members here do those things all the time. They reference that they got “hooked up with this by member x” or “got an extra of this for member y”, and they ship stuff to each other without disclosing what’s in the box to FedEx or UPS because they aren’t supposed to be shipping alcohol there. As you acknowledged, this stuff is just as illegal whether there is a premium above what the original buyer paid at retail or not. But most members here don’t care as long as they agree with the manner in which the law is being broken. But they quickly go straight to “illegal!” when talking about other people doing secondary transactions.

 

You said “Illegal is illegal, no matter how you choose to rationalize it in your head.“ but that is my point, that many folks here rationalize away what they do when breaking liquor laws in the ways that they like to, while at the same time vilifying others for breaking the same laws in a manner they approve of and yelling “illegal!” about it. 
 

 

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BigRich
I figure you’ve ordered something not locally available from a non-domestic whiskey purveyor?  If so, it’s not fear of missing out that drove you.  But rather, the opportunity to experience?  

Nope. Nearly all FOMO. It was the experience or opportunity that I was afraid of missing out on. Haven’t all of us on this site suffered from FOMO at some point during the pursuit of this hobby? I’m not sure why some folks are taking that as a derogatory idea. It reminds me of older millennials trying to move the demographic line because they don’t want to be lumped in with “that” group. FOMO is a normal offshoot of desire. Not a negative thing.
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Phil T
29 minutes ago, BottledInBond said:

 

 

The reality though is that many members here do those things all the time. They reference that they got “hooked up with this by member x” or “got an extra of this for member y”, and they ship stuff to each other without disclosing what’s in the box to FedEx or UPS because they aren’t supposed to be shipping alcohol there. 

 

I peruse these pages almost daily, and can't remember ever seeing what you describe. Can you please post specific quotes?

 

Prost!   Phil 

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BottledInBond
16 minutes ago, Phil T said:

I peruse these pages almost daily, and can't remember ever seeing what you describe. Can you please post specific quotes?

 

Prost!   Phil 

Well, here are some quick mentions within the last couple days that took 2 minutes to grab from the purchased thread, where people are buying bottles that are going to go to other people, and there is always stuff like this on here. Plenty of mentions of shipping (either full bottles or samples) and we know what states that’s illegal in but when a member here posts that they are trying a sample of whiskey X that member Y was cool enough to send them, and they live in a state that doesn’t allow shipping, it’s pretty obvious what is going on for the most part (always Some caveats for legality exist, got it shipped to friend across border where shipping is legal or whatever)
 

Again, people basically celebrate clearing shelves and selling these to each other within this community. As discussed above, the laws aren’t about if a person sells to another person at a profit or a loss. It’s just as illegal if I clear a shelf of something hard to find and ship them to other SB members and they send me back equal $ to what I originally paid for those bottles. When it’s within this group the legalities or lack there of are “rationalized” away...... 

 

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FacePlant

This thread brings up some pretty important points. I would caution posting any information that could be viewed as unlawful. ANYONE can peruse these pages including overly aggressive enforcers. There is a movement afloat (mentioned on these pages) to trackdown and apprehend those involved in activities that could be unlawful in certain jurisdictions. 

Of course none of that would apply to me. :ph34r:

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Richnimrod
6 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

I'd just like to prove that I can post in the middle of a heated discussion and be the chilled out one.

Them's FIGHT'N' Words, pardner!

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Bob_Loblaw
7 hours ago, The Black Tot said:

I'd just like to prove that I can post in the middle of a heated discussion and be the chilled out one.

Who are you and what have you done with TBT? 😀

Edited by Bob_Loblaw
Emoji added so ya’ll know I’m not that serious
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FasterHorses
2 hours ago, FacePlant said:

This thread brings up some pretty important points. I would caution posting any information that could be viewed as unlawful. ANYONE can peruse these pages including overly aggressive enforcers. There is a movement afloat (mentioned on these pages) to trackdown and apprehend those involved in activities that could be unlawful in certain jurisdictions. 

Of course none of that would apply to me. :ph34r:

“You just made the list.” -francis sawyer

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