Tours, should there be a charge? (was:disappointment)

[jeff]

Even so, the person at Dickel was very courteous and apologetic and gave us a freebie from the gift shop. I think it was bottle of Dickel brand chewable vitamins

Seriously, the WT was easily the worst tour we have been on. One of the best tours was Saturday before the sampler at L&G. I had forgot that they are now charging $5 for a standard "Bourbon Discovery Tour" until I saw the cash register near the entrance. Leslie and I have been on the tour before, but Brian had not so we ponied up the money and off we went. I think our tour lasted about 90 minutes and there is now a tasting with a souvenir acrylic shot glass at the end, and all the bourbon balls you can eat. I don''t know if that's the policy or not, but that big tray just sat there taunting us. Well, lets just say we got our $5 worth out of the tour

[cowdery]

I think WR is smart to charge. Anything free just begs to be exploited. When it was free, I imagine them getting busloads of package tours of people who really had no interest, but the tour packager couldn't resist the price. Five dollars or thereabouts shouldn't be prohibitive to anyone who is really interested.

[doubleblank]

We were at WR that same Saturday as Jeff and Leslie. I have no problem with a small charge if it includes a sample of their product, discounts on purchases, some souvenier (or those bourbon balls), etc. Like Chuck said, a small charge keeps the tour from being exploited and results in most attendees being really interested in the products. Fees also allow a company to hire and train tour guides properly rather than use "volunteers" for guides. At BT, while the tour guide was personable and the tour OK, she wasn't terribly knowledable about BT's products. She didn't even like bourbon!!!...just used it in making cookies. She also said that BT didn't bottle anything at barrel proof in response to someone's questions...while we were in front of the display case with a bottle of Stagg in it. While the concept of a free tour, conducted by a knowledable guide, getting to see the inner workings of a distillery followed by a tasting is a nice thought....its just not practical when its free. If a small charge and an appointment is necessary in order to produce a rewarding tour, I'm all for it. Remember...most people touring a distillery (or winery for that matter) have traveled a long way to get there...gasoline, airfare, hotel costs etc. A small fee to ensure a good tour is well worth it. WR clearly learned how to run a tour and build a tasting bar/gift shop from their wine country operations. I'll bet HH's new visitor center will also be top notch.

Randy B.

[Gillman]

I agree Randy and yet I find most tours have a packaged quality about them I find a distraction. Generally, almost anyone on these boards will know quite a bit more than the tour guide about what is going on. The exception is when you can get a personalised tour from Bettye Jo, because you know in that case the sincerity and knowledge factors can't be beat. (This is why I regret not being able to join you for that tour the day before the recent Sampler, but I hope to remedy that on another occasion). When last at BT I didn't take the tour, just walked around myself, peered into the old warehouses from open side windows, reflected on the handsome red brick older buildings and the ambience of the place. I did the same at Clermont once. That was tour enough. The little shop on-site where they sold only Buffalo Trace and Sazerac rye ("sorry, we're out of that one") - nothing else was available in their huge line - seemed superfluous.

Gary

[jbutler]

Anything free just begs to be exploited

Ahem ... I'm in complete agreement with you there Chuck.

[angelshare]

You have all made some interesting and provocative points. After reflecting on some of your comments:

1) I too noticed that some of the tour guides did not seem to be experts. Given my own bourbon knowledge deficiencies, I was reluctant to comment on this earlier in the thread. In 1997, other than reading Waymack and Harris and the Regan book before our first bourbon distillery tours, I didn't know jack. I still felt like some of my basic questions about the distilleries' own products were evaded by the guides.

2) Having said that, I felt like my visiting a given distillery was appreciated, and I felt like I got an intimate look inside the distilleries that was memorable. Even if some of my questions went unanswered, I was well pleased with every tour with respect to "getting to know the distillery" at some level. Getting to meet Jimmy Russell and chat? Talk about memorable.

3) I have no quarrel with LG for charging $5 if they are offering something "special," ie, tasting. I would fork over $5 to get that added experience as part of the tour. I had never really considered the argument that charging also facilitates training of the guides and keeps away the truly indifferent tourists. I'm sure a tour of enthusiasts and a knowledgable guide is a lot more fun.

4) With your comments, I do wonder if things really have changed since we last toured bourbon country (or TN whiskey country). As a reference, our touring chronology is:

11/94 - JD

1/97 - JD, MM, WT

5/98 - HH, LG

For those of you who have been visiting the distilleries in the years since and/or before, have you perceived a change in content, tone, style, length, etc? Or were we just wowed by the novelty and too naive to appreciate the lack of substance?

[mike1]

I'll have to disagree. I do not like the idea of charging for tours.Distillers are trying to create goodwill for a particular product, and charging, I think works against that. Also if producers charged I don't think people would go on so many tours, and that is bad for the industry. It looks to me like most of the places that I have been to do quite well in the gift shops, and that should support the tours. If it were not for these tours there are products I would not have tried and memories that I would not have.

[dhooch]

Until I read these postings I found it offensive that LG would charge $5 for a tour, that cost nothing a couple of years ago.

However, there are some good points being made by everyone and I am less inclined to stay away, as I have been since the fee. LG has one of the nicest settings of all the distilleries... the exception being Makers, of course. I missed not seeing it again. I guess I will have to go back, now.

[BSS]

I haven't been on too many tours in other industries that a fee isn't charged.

I feel a fee is needed to not so much pay for guides and such, but to maintain the beauty of the distillery in general. Traditionally distilleries are not naturally nice looking. Woodford Reserve (L&G) pours many $$$$ into keeping their property in excellent condition. If it wasn't for the tourist, I doubt they would really care if the paint had a little mold on it or if the grass was a little high. In WRs case, I would say that fee goes toward keeping the grounds looking nice. Keeping that place looking the way it does, is not cheap at all.

[brendaj]

I feel a fee is needed to not so much pay for guides and such, but to maintain the beauty of the distillery in general.

IMHO, making things nice should be considered a cost of doing business. In L&G's case, they're also operating a restaurant. We had brunch there last year, around Thanksgiving. (It was wonderful! It was also $25 per person... ).

And as far as the guides are concerned, it would seem to me to be in the company's best interest to see that the folks interacting with the public are as educated and enthusiastic as possible. Again, not something I think I should pay for.

I feel their pain, but I have Bourbon to buy...

Bj

[Paradox]

I'm with you Brenda. Not to mention I am sure they can save some $$ if they do away with that dumb bus that drives you to the bottom of the hill and back up again. I mean cmon', it's a hill with steps that leap up and down. I can see having a smaller one on hand for those who may need it, but paying to shuffle everyone around like that is unecessary. I for one am glad I went to L&G when I did last festival, because I won't return paying that $5 fee. I goto Budweiser tours; Free. Jelly Belly in CA; Free. The Brooklyn Brewery; Free. It's a distillery, not a theme park.

[brendaj]

It's a distillery, not a theme park.

Exactly. If they want to sell me something, they shouldn't expect me to pay them to tell me how cool it is...

[Dave_in_Canada]

that dumb bus that drives you to the bottom of the hill and back up again.

I asked two bus drivers about that. Their pat answer was that they didn't want distillery "guests" to think that they could walk down there and wander around along. It's control thing. And for some (who, I'm not sure) it may add to the mystique. I'm with you Mark. Methinks it's ludicrous.

[angelshare]

I see both sides of this, believe me. We also did the LG tour when it was free. It departs from the industry convention to charge.

Still, I think it's okay (not super cool, but acceptable) to charge if you offer something clearly over and above every distillery tour on which we've ever been: tasting the product. One thing I was not really sure of - when you toured, was there a tasting offered, or was that only instituted after the $5 fee was in place?

Just out of curiosity, would you consider it acceptable if the tour were free and the tasting were optional for a fee? I would think this would be the more "PR" savvy way of doing it, and I bet 80% of the tourists would pay anyway.

Looking at the glass as half full, maybe this will prompt someone to "one up" LG and offer tasting for free. This does seem to be more commonplace in other food/beverage tours.

Tangentially: do they still give you that little certificate at the end?

[doubleblank]

Hey guys and gals....there is no such thing as a free tour. You either pay for it when you take the tour....or those costs of conducting tours are included in the price of their product. You either pay for it when you take the tour...or every time you take a drink...do you want to subsidize the freeloaders who show up in the stationwagon full of friends? I'll pay for the tour everytime if it offers an enhanced experience that wouldn't be available without the fee.

Randy B.

[Paradox]

You either pay for it when you take the tour....or those costs of conducting tours are included in the price of their product.

Or you pay for it included in the price of the product and when you take the tour... Which is what I would think happens alot and in the case of L&G. I'd still not rather pay for it when I take the tour knowing I have already paid for it in the cost od the product. (Which is why I would hope Woodford Reserve is selling for what it is selling for as I think it is too pricy for its quality)

[Dave_in_Canada]

maybe this will prompt someone to "one up" LG and offer tasting for free.

BT offers a free tasting and if the crowd is small you can also sample their Rain Vodka.

[TNbourbon]

When I toured Buffalo Trace last July, we finished with a taste (albeit, small) of Buffalo Trace AND Rain vodka. I never paid a cent.

[BSS]

They spent millions to redo that place, so I think they have already more than paid the price of doing business. Now if visitors want to enjoy the millions of dollars of work that was put into making that place the way it is, I think they should pay for it. If you don't like it, don't go.

I think the reason I have the view point I do on this is because I remember when that place was a total dump. Chucks video doesn't even come close to showing how bad that place was. Knowing how much time and money they threw into it for the restoration and everyday needs, I can see how they think their product is worth something in return. And that something is 5 lousy dollars. You also have to remember that many people that tour the plant do not drink bourbon, so they aren't going to recoup much of their tourism expenditures in sales to those tourist at a later date. I also havn't noticed a drop off of the number of cars in their parking lot, so that $5 must not be that unattractive.

[TNbourbon]

I've already done L&G/Woodford Reserve for free -- so, if I'm by myself and I can go down the road to Buffalo Trace, Wild Turkey or Maker's Mark and get a free tour, I'll pass. But, if I'm with someone I think would enjoy the distillery and beautiful drive to it, I'll go the $5 -- and drink the sample at the end, plus eat bourbon balls.

[OneCubeOnly]

I have mixed feelings about the whole admission fee deal. On one hand, if I've travelled 600 miles and decide I want to see L&G, $5 isn't going to tip the scales of my decision one way or the other. However, I always thought the idea of the tour was to win people over, reinforce goodwill, and show off your product. I shouldn't have to PAY for somebody to saturate me with their marketing.

Honestly, I don't even particularly care for their product, so I'm not sure I'd cross the street to take the tour, fee or not.

[cowdery]

I like the fact that Brown-Forman makes its own decisions. They don't rely on which way the wind is blowing. I don't know this, but my guess is that Woodford Reserve has proved to be very popular because it is historically significant, very attractive, and a lot more convenient to the major highways and other major tourist attractions than is Maker's Mark, for example. I believe they are now charging because they can. At such a modest price, my assumption is that all they are keeping away are the most minimally interested, which is why I concluded that maybe they were being exploited by tour operators. There are a lot of people running tours to the horse farms and having a free distillery tour in the neighborhood probably was too good to resist.

[BSS]

Everyone must also keep in mind that the Kentucky Tourism Cabinet, Woodford County Chamber of Commerce, and many other central Kentucky tourism agencies advertise the WR distillery as a reason to come to Woodford County and Central Kentucky. Of all the advertising about Woodford Reserve as a tourist destination, WR does a very very small amount of it, those other agencies do. Living nearby, I see these groups "using" WR to draw people to the area, and the last time I checked, WR wasn't being suplemented by any of these "tourism agencies". Full time guides and the money it takes to live up to the promotional hype, has to be made up somewhere, and that somewhere to me should be the wallets of those people that are taking the tours.

This all brings me to another question. What is the average daily attendance for tours at some of the other distilleries that offer them?

[pepcycle]

If you paid ~$35 for Woodford Reserve over the last six years, which was nothing more than honey barrels of Old Forrester, you've already paid that five bucks and then some. If BF couldn't pay the millions it invested with that windfall, then they wasted the money somewhere else.

[jbutler]

Brandon,

I think you may be missing a fundamental point here; the Labrot and Graham facility is an advertisement. A sophisticated one, but an advertisement nevertheless. The beautiful buildings and landscaping at L&G werent accidental. It's not like they were somehow compelled to create a showplace of this magnitude. I believe that the intent was to charge for admission from the moment the site was conceived.

You're absolutely right in that five bucks aint worth the time it takes to bitch about it. I'd pay it to take the tour, but IMO B-F would engender more goodwill amongst the bourbon drinking populace by keeping the tour free of charge. It's interesting that Brown-Forman has convinced the public to directly pay for their bourbon advertising, but it's not like the situation is without precedent.

Charging some nominal fee for tours and tasting has been de riguer for the 800 pound gorillas of the Napa Valley for several decades now. You want to see their facilities, you pay ... and people do it in droves.