What is BT Thinking?

[AlfaLarreo]

I apologize if this has been covered, but searches didn’t bring up anything.  I see a lot of mention of disgruntlement with BT for availability, extended offerings,  and secondary market pricing but nothing on their overall strategy.  So I’d like to know what people think BT is really doing.

 

Like many of you I no longer hunt their products or even buy them if available, short of the PVW, ETH, or BTAC lotteries.  To me, those are at least worth the lottery effort, but I even limit that effort to one or two a year.  I sent them an email a couple of years ago stating that they don’t seem to take my market seriously and there’s plenty of other good bourbon, so I won’t be purchasing there’s any longer.  The response was, oh yes we do, we’re building stock and here’s the name of your distributor.  That was enough to convince me they didn’t care.

 

Now it seems like almost everyone is in the same boat, yet they keep prices relatively low and use stock to expand offerings on brands that are already in drastically short supply.  So I ask myself why?

 

All I can come up with is that competition is fierce and they really can’t win on value or quality.  So they’ve decided to make the brands associated with a mystic of being hard to get for a reason.  That keeps the burgeoning bourbon market neophytes interested in their products and willing to do anything to get it.  Personally, I don’t even think the Weller’s are that good (although I haven’t had the FP for CYPB), and although ER and Blanton’s are good Bourbons, they’re not great Bourbons.  Like I stated in my email to them, there are many good available Bourbons out there and that’s what I buy.

The other advantage of this strategy is that when the market boom ends, and it will, they won’t be stuck with a ton of stock to drive their prices down.  Whatever the reason, it is brilliant marketing and they have built the overall brand to be iconic.

[BigSkyDrams]

What exactly is it you’re suggesting they’re doing? Artificially limiting supply of their mid-tier offerings? Jacking up prices? 
 

It seems to me a lot of the BT hype is organic, or at least driven from some factor outside of any marketing strategy they’re doing on their end. People just really like their bourbon; and they were sort of the “it” label just as bourbon really took off culturally. IMO they just continue to benefit from that fortuitous timing (maybe they also created/accelerated the rise in popularity of bourbon?), such that they now just have inertia in the bourbon market that draws in new fans as quickly as they can put out product.  Plus their MSRPs remain reasonable, while other parties in the distribution are responsible for jacking prices up, at least to my knowledge. 

 

And they really are expanding production at crazy levels. Given that even their lower shelf offerings still age for, what, 6-8 years(?), it will take awhile for the new production to catch up to the demand (if ever) and they seem to be putting out as much as they can without robbing too much aging stock for the higher aged/premium offerings to be released in the future. 
 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by BigSkyDrams
Clarity

[parksmart]

I’ve heard this hypothesis before.  Basically whether it’s Pappy/Weller, or Yamazaki/Hibiki/Hakushu/Nikka, or DRC/Coche Dury/Leroy/Keller, those brands are getting lumped in with the Hermès or Nikes of the world that artificially limit their production/supply and thus continue to juice demand for their products.  
 

It’s not as if the makers of bourbon, whisky or wine can simply increase production to meet demand, and a couple years later are able to ship a bunch more cases to distributors.  New supply takes years to come to market, as dictated by the age statements or legal requirements of the products.  No one, whether supplier or consumer, had a crystal ball 15+ years ago and could realistically anticipate the dramatic increase in demand since then.  Even with the elimination of age statements for products like OWA107, there are still a number of years those products have to mature to maintain a semblance of the flavor profile people associate with them. 

[flahute]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

This.

[BottledInBond]

4 hours ago, AlfaLarreo said:

I apologize if this has been covered, but searches didn’t bring up anything.  I see a lot of mention of disgruntlement with BT for availability, extended offerings,  and secondary market pricing but nothing on their overall strategy.  So I’d like to know what people think BT is really doing.

 

Like many of you I no longer hunt their products or even buy them if available, short of the PVW, ETH, or BTAC lotteries.  To me, those are at least worth the lottery effort, but I even limit that effort to one or two a year.  I sent them an email a couple of years ago stating that they don’t seem to take my market seriously and there’s plenty of other good bourbon, so I won’t be purchasing there’s any longer.  The response was, oh yes we do, we’re building stock and here’s the name of your distributor.  That was enough to convince me they didn’t care.

 

Now it seems like almost everyone is in the same boat, yet they keep prices relatively low and use stock to expand offerings on brands that are already in drastically short supply.  So I ask myself why?

 

All I can come up with is that competition is fierce and they really can’t win on value or quality.  So they’ve decided to make the brands associated with a mystic of being hard to get for a reason.  That keeps the burgeoning bourbon market neophytes interested in their products and willing to do anything to get it.  Personally, I don’t even think the Weller’s are that good (although I haven’t had the FP for CYPB), and although ER and Blanton’s are good Bourbons, they’re not great Bourbons.  Like I stated in my email to them, there are many good available Bourbons out there and that’s what I buy.

The other advantage of this strategy is that when the market boom ends, and it will, they won’t be stuck with a ton of stock to drive their prices down.  Whatever the reason, it is brilliant marketing and they have built the overall brand to be iconic.

On some level they’re just like the other players in the market. They’ve certainly taken advantage of the boom. They’ve dropped age statements, they’ve upped bottle counts of BTAC at the detriment of quality, in the opinion of some of us, etc. Yes they have expanded the Weller line for the CYPB/Full Proof/Single Barrel while they can’t keep the original lineup on the shelf. They are a for-profit entity though and the aren’t independent. The parent company wants to push sales of a whole portfolio of brands and they know that if there is high demand for BT, EHT, Blanton’s, Weller, WV, BTAC they can drive a ton of sales of Fireball and lots of others stuff to distributors and retailers that want what consumers ask them for every day. Do I love everything BT does? Of course not but it is what it is in this market. They make stuff people want. Supply and demand. It is what it is 

[AlfaLarreo]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDrams said:

What exactly is it you’re suggesting they’re doing? Artificially limiting supply of their mid-tier offerings? Jacking up prices? 
 

It seems to me a lot of the BT hype is organic, or at least driven from some factor outside of any marketing strategy they’re doing on their end. People just really like their bourbon; and they were sort of the “it” label just as bourbon really took off culturally. IMO they just continue to benefit from that fortuitous timing (maybe they also created/accelerated the rise in popularity of bourbon?), such that they now just have inertia in the bourbon market that draws in new fans as quickly as they can put out product.  Plus their MSRPs remain reasonable, while other parties in the distribution are responsible for jacking prices up, at least to my knowledge. 

 

And they really are expanding production at crazy levels. Given that even their lower shelf offerings still age for, what, 6-8 years(?), it will take awhile for the new production to catch up to the demand (if ever) and they seem to be putting out as much as they can without robbing too much aging stock for the higher aged/premium offerings to be released in the future. 
 

 

I’m certainly not suggesting either of those and as the thread states, I really just wanted opinions.  I personally think they’ve kept prices too low for the demand, which doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. 

 

I don’t think I’m saying anything that many people haven’t said before, including the recent annual review of BT on this forum.   Jason from Mash and Drum had Weller, BTAC, and Blanton’s on his overhyped and/or overpriced list, with Blanton’s being the most overhyped.  I’m just wondering why.

 

I can buy that it’s just good fortune and timing, but some recent moves lead me to believe that isn’t the case.

[fishnbowljoe]

Here’s an example of just how skewed some people’s perception of things can be.
 

A couple of months ago I was inquiring about the possibility of getting a WLW, or at least getting my name on “the list”. This was at a rather large chain store. I was directed to the customer service manager. After a few words, he basically accused me of being a troll. We had a rather spirited discussion, and mostly agreed to disagree. As I started to leave, he told me that it really didn’t matter anyway because BT produced half as much BTAC this year, and they probably weren’t gonna get any anyway. I asked him where he got his information, and he told me from BT’s website, which he visited frequently. I then told him that I also visited BT’s website frequently, and saw no such information. I also told him I was a frequent visitor to the distillery, and was privy to private pics done by the distillery, and had participated in a couple of those private barrel selections. The icing on the cake was when I told him I had a pretty good relationship with several folks at the distillery, including CEO Mark Brown, and that I would contact the distillery to get the facts. Well, I visited the store the next week after contacting Mark Brown. The customer service manager treated me a little different on this visit, even before I gave him my information. I told him I had contacted Mr. Brown, and got an email from him which he could see if he wanted. He said that wouldn’t be necessary, but wanted to know what Mr. Brown had to say. Directly from the horses mouth, “There were more of some BTAC expressions, and less of others. Net, net, about the same.” Sure doesn’t sound like half as much to me.  FWIW, that manager now mostly tries to avoid me when I visit that store.  

 

Biba! Joe

[AlfaLarreo]

2 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Here’s an example of just how skewed some people’s perception of things can be.
 

A couple of months ago I was inquiring about the possibility of getting a WLW, or at least getting my name on “the list”. This was at a rather large chain store. I was directed to the customer service manager. After a few words, he basically accused me of being a troll. We had a rather spirited discussion, and mostly agreed to disagree. As I started to leave, he told me that it really didn’t matter anyway because BT produced half as much BTAC this year, and they probably weren’t gonna get any anyway. I asked him where he got his information, and he told me from BT’s website, which he visited frequently. I then told him that I also visited BT’s website frequently, and saw no such information. I also told him I was a frequent visitor to the distillery, and was privy to private pics done by the distillery, and had participated in a couple of those private barrel selections. The icing on the cake was when I told him I had a pretty good relationship with several folks at the distillery, including CEO Mark Brown, and that I would contact the distillery to get the facts. Well, I visited the store the next week after contacting Mark Brown. The customer service manager treated me a little different on this visit, even before I gave him my information. I told him I had contacted Mr. Brown, and got an email from him which he could see if he wanted. He said that wouldn’t be necessary, but wanted to know what Mr. Brown had to say. Directly from the horses mouth, “There were more of some BTAC expressions, and less of others. Net, net, about the same.” Sure doesn’t sound like half as much to me.  FWIW, that manager now mostly tries to avoid me when I visit that store.  

 

Biba! Joe

Very good insight, thank you!  Are you saying my perception is skewed?  Which certainly may be the case.  I’m really just looking for opinions and it sounds like you would have a good one.  Again, I don’t think I’m stating anything that hasn’t been stated on this forum and other Bourbon sites and blogs.  I’m just wondering why.

[BigSkyDrams]

5 minutes ago, AlfaLarreo said:

 

I can buy that it’s just good fortune and timing, but some recent moves lead me to believe that isn’t the case.

What recent moves?

 

it just seems to me they’re “making hay while the sun shines”, as the expression goes. While simultaneously reinvesting profits/capital to try and ride the wave of popularity all the way to the bank, presuming market trends continue.  Regardless of what Internet personalities say about being overhyped, having retailers not be able to keep your product in stock seems like a great problem for any business to have. 

[AlfaLarreo]

43 minutes ago, BottledInBond said:

On some level they’re just like the other players in the market. They’ve certainly taken advantage of the boom. They’ve dropped age statements, they’ve upped bottle counts of BTAC at the detriment of quality, in the opinion of some of us, etc. Yes they have expanded the Weller line for the CYPB/Full Proof/Single Barrel while they can’t keep the original lineup on the shelf. They are a for-profit entity though and the aren’t independent. The parent company wants to push sales of a whole portfolio of brands and they know that if there is high demand for BT, EHT, Blanton’s, Weller, WV, BTAC they can drive a ton of sales of Fireball and lots of others stuff to distributors and retailers that want what consumers ask them for every day. Do I love everything BT does? Of course not but it is what it is in this market. They make stuff people want. Supply and demand. It is what it is 

Excellent point!  The parent company driving sales for the entire corporation through distribution channels makes sense to me.

[Jazz June]

I think the idea that BT is holding back supply merely to create an impression of scarcity is nonsense. They want to make money, holding product for no reason doesn't help that cause. I believe the supply issues are real when they can't keep standard Buffalo Trace or Weller SR on the shelves. Neither of these is a super premium product. The MSRP of each is $27 I believe. There are a number of different factors at play in the scarcity problem.

 

First, distribution of their products varies significantly. This is, at least in part, because they allocate based to some degree on historic brand sales. This I have been told by BT people directly. Texas drank a lot of Weller before the boom, Texas gets more Weller now. Ohio has tons of Weller, but I have read that this is some sort of supply/demand experiment Sazerac is doing, not sure how credible that assertion is though. Makes some sense that they would want some actual market based evidence of what the true demand for their products is.

 

For BT #1 products, they just didn't make enough. They put pretty good age on the base Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare expressions and they just didn't barrel enough whiskey 7-10 years ago to keep up with current demand. Stuff like BTAC will never be made to meet demand. These high end LEs don't actually represent that big a piece of the bottom line. They have done what they are meant to do, drive brand perception for the entirety of the line. And this they have done to spectacular effect.

 

BT #2 and Van Winkle products are a special case. They are made under contract by Buffalo Trace for Age International and the Van Winkles. BT is probably obligated to supply a certain amount, but may not be motivated to go beyond that contractual obligation.

 

There are a few choices distilleries can make when supply can't meet demand: (1) increase prices, (2) decrease proof and/or age, or (3) accept scarcity. Sazerac has chosen some of option 2 and a lot of option 3. They have for the most part not gone for big price bumps on existing products (although of course prices have risen). They did bite the bullet and give OWA a big price bump though (I think this was tied to the price of new product WFP). What they have also done, like some of their competitors, is introduce new products at higher price points to avoid big jumps on existing products. I understand why this is done, but I don't have to like it. Double Eagle Very Rare and OFC were introduced to capture some of that super high end collector money for example and releases like that don't bother me as much because I don't think anyone expects many of those to be opened.

 

Lots of games get played by distributors and retailers with BT products. They are basically free money as so many of them are worth far more than their cost to those distributors and retailers. How they cash in on that varies and some of it might not be so legal. People say BT could do more to police this, but realistically they can only do so much and I don' think they are motivated to crap on distributors or retailers who represent their long term business partners and are responsible for actually getting the products in our hands.

 

Sazerac also has not historically done as much in foreign markets as some of their American competitors and these represent huge untapped pools of demand that they weren't necessarily planning for 10 years ago. They have started to move into this more and that further strains supply.

 

Long story short, supply of the "ordinary" BT products should eventually catch up closer to demand. They are expanding. But BTAC and Van Winkle stuff are never going back to sitting on shelves unless there is a true collapse of the industry, which none of us should wish for.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Jazz June

[AlfaLarreo]

7 minutes ago, BigSkyDrams said:

What recent moves?

 

it just seems to me they’re “making hay while the sun shines”, as the expression goes. While simultaneously reinvesting profits/capital to try and ride the wave of popularity all the way to the bank, presuming market trends continue.  Regardless of what Internet personalities say about being overhyped, having retailers not be able to keep your product in stock seems like a great problem for any business to have. 

Just the things that @flahute mentioned in his yearly review, expansion of brands already oversold and perceived lowering of quality.

[AlfaLarreo]

5 minutes ago, Jazz June said:

I think the idea that BT is holding back supply merely to create an impression of scarcity is nonsense. They want to make money, holding product for no reason doesn't help that cause. I believe the supply issues are real when they can't keep standard Buffalo Trace or Weller SR on the shelves. Neither of these is a super premium product. The MSRP of each is $27 I believe. There are a number of different factors at play in the scarcity problem.

 

First, distribution of their products varies significantly. This is, at least in part, because they allocate based to some degree on historic brand sales. This I have been told by BT people directly. Texas drank a lot of Weller before the boom, Texas gets more Weller now. Ohio has tons of Weller, but I have read that this is some sort of supply/demand experiment Sazerac is doing, not sure how credible that assertion is though. Makes some sense that they would want some actual market based evidence of what the true demand for their products is.

 

For BT #1 products, they just didn't make enough. They put pretty good age on the base Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare expressions and they just didn't barrel enough whiskey 7-8 years ago to keep up with current demand. Stuff like BTAC will never be made to meet demand. These high end LEs don't actually represent that big a piece of the bottom line. They have done what they are meant to do, drive brand perception for the entirety of the line. And this they have done to spectacular effect.

 

BT #2 and Van Winkle products are a special case. They are made under contract by Buffal

Sorry if it sounded like I was implying that they are holding back supply, I absolutely do not believe that.  All I really was suggesting is what you pointed out in BT # 1.  That they used the hire-end products to drive the entire line.  The Weller got the huge “baby Pappy” bump and other things just seemed to follow.  As you state they have done it to spectacular effect.

[BigSkyDrams]

44 minutes ago, AlfaLarreo said:

Just the things that @flahute mentioned in his yearly review, expansion of brands already oversold and perceived lowering of quality.

I see. I think it just goes back to the almighty dollar. I imagine their decisions are trying to balance keeping up QC as best they can to maintain market credibility,  while  simultaneously trying to put out as much product as they can to meet current demand. But they’re also clearly thinking that the bourbon wave will continue for quite awhile so they’re setting themselves up for future moves too.

 

Take the Benchmark expansion for example. I bought one bottle of benchmark several years ago, and that was enough for me to know it’s not something I was going to buy again.  However, I’m now sure I will try to pick up one, or multiple, of the new offerings once they’re out, just from curiosity sake. And who knows, maybe one will become my new preference for a casual pour. Either way, I’ve gone from someone who was never going to buy that brand again, into someone who will at least once more. With the way Buffalo Trace basic is revered in some circles, can’t you just already hear people who couldn’t get a bottle saying “this Benchmark [insert whatever new expression] is basically Eagle Rare with a different label”?

Edited January 4, 2021 by BigSkyDrams

[fishnbowljoe]

4 minutes ago, AlfaLarreo said:

Very good insight, thank you!  Are you saying my perception is skewed?  Which certainly may be the case.  I’m really just looking for opinions and it sounds like you would have a good one.  Again, I don’t think I’m stating anything that hasn’t been stated on this forum and other Bourbon sites and blogs.  I’m just wondering why.

Nope, not casting any personal aspersions at all. Just relating a recent experience. 
 

Here’s another. I’ve heard from several store owners over the years in my area that much of what they do is because they are virtually being held hostage by some distributors. Yeah, I know this practice isn’t particularly new news, but I think it bears repeating. “Yeah, we’ll let you have a few bottles of  ‘ABC’ but you have to buy a dozen cases of ‘DEF’.”  Here’s another example. Some stores here try to order certain products by the case. And they get it. Maybe two or three bottles at a time over the course of a month or more. No case sale, means no case discount. And that means we pay more. The liquor store has no choice.

Another practice that raises some questions is the proverbial point system. Hmmmmm? I know of at least two stores near me that sold more point eligible products this year than they did last. Their reward? They received less allocated items. Re:LE’s/Pappy/BTAC. It should have been more.

 

Here’s one last one just for shits and giggles. For the last several years, off premise accounts in my area, and probably many others, have been getting a larger and larger piece of the allocated item pie. With Covid-19, many bars and restaurants have been mostly closed or very limited in their indoor activity. They’ve done a smaller percentage of the business they normally do. A good percentage of this has been carry out and/or delivery. So, where did all the good booze they’d normally get go?  
 

I was recently sidelined for six months due to surgery on my right rotator cuff. Once I was able to drive, and felt safe about getting out, I did so. Of course I made the regular rounds of my local liquor mongers, a couple of which just so happened to be in close proximity to where I had my physical therapy.  I frequently ran into local reps and distributors from my area. They already knew me and a few of my friends because we frequent a number of local stores, and because we try to give back to the community by attending a couple of local places that do tastings and raffles for charity events. I’ve struck up friendships with many of them, and they’re as honest as they can be about certain things. With regards to questions I ask and what they’re able to tell me, and  what they want to know? Well, I can read between the lines. So can they. ‘Nuff Ced. 
 

Biba! Joe

[AlfaLarreo]

14 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Nope, not casting any personal aspersions at all. Just relating a recent experience. 
 

Here’s another. I’ve heard from several store owners over the years in my area that much of what they do is because they are virtually being held hostage by some distributors. Yeah, I know this practice isn’t particularly new news, but I think it bears repeating. “Yeah, we’ll let you have a few bottles of  ‘ABC’ but you have to buy a dozen cases of ‘DEF’.”  Here’s another example. Some stores here try to order certain products by the case. And they get it. Maybe two or three bottles at a time over the course of a month or more. No case sale, means no case discount. And that means we pay more. The liquor store has no choice.

Another practice that raises some questions is the proverbial point system. Hmmmmm? I know of at least two stores near me that sold more point eligible products this year than they did last. Their reward? They received less allocated items. Re:LE’s/Pappy/BTAC. It should have been more.

 

Here’s one last one just for shits and giggles. For the last several years, off premise accounts in my area, and probably many others, have been getting a larger and larger piece of the allocated item pie. With Covid-19, many bars and restaurants have been mostly closed or very limited in their indoor activity. They’ve done a smaller percentage of the business they normally do. A good percentage of this has been carry out and/or delivery. So, where did all the good booze they’d normally get go?  
 

I was recently sidelined for six months due to surgery on my right rotator cuff. Once I was able to drive, and felt safe about getting out, I did so. Of course I made the regular rounds of my local liquor mongers, a couple of which just so happened to be in close proximity to where I had my physical therapy.  I frequently ran into local reps and distributors from my area. They already knew me and a few of my friends because we frequent a number of local stores, and because we try to give back to the community by attending a couple of local places that do tastings and raffles for charity events. I’ve struck up friendships with many of them, and they’re as honest as they can be about certain things. With regards to questions I ask and what they’re able to tell me, and  what they want to know? Well, I can read between the lines. So can they. ‘Nuff Ced. 
 

Biba! Joe

Great information, thank you!  I’ve heard the same from store managers and there is no doubt they are frustrated.

[Clueby]

4 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Here’s another example. Some stores here try to order certain products by the case. And they get it. Maybe two or three bottles at a time over the course of a month or more. No case sale, means no case discount. And that means we pay more. The liquor store has no choice.

I was talking to a guy who manages the liquor for a large gas station. He gets pretty decent selection but his prices are always $5 to $10 higher mostly due to not getting cases. Retail is ECBP maybe $65-$69. Stagg Jr. for maybe $75. When MM101 first came out a couple months ago he had it marked at around $43 or $44 and had 2 or 3 bottles. I told him he was about $10 too high and that TW had them for $33 or less and plenty on the shelf so it was gonna be hard to move. I've seen some of you even post that you've gotten it as low as $31. His reply was that his COST was $29 and he couldn't keep the doors open at $33. He only got 3 bottles of it. I believe him and understand his predicament. He went on a bit how he thought maybe there was a distribution math error on the MM101 due to 6 bottle cases vs 12 bottle. Not sure if there was anything to that. But to make a long story longer, mom and pops just don't get a level playing field.

[AlfaLarreo]

51 minutes ago, BigSkyDrams said:

I see. I think it just goes back to the almighty dollar. I imagine their decisions are trying to balance keeping up QC as best they can to maintain market credibility,  while  simultaneously trying to put out as much product as they can to meet current demand. But they’re also clearly thinking that the bourbon wave will continue for quite awhile so they’re setting themselves up for future moves too.

 

Take the Benchmark expansion for example. I bought one bottle of benchmark several years ago, and that was enough for me to know it’s not something I was going to buy again.  However, I’m now sure I will try to pick up one, or multiple, of the new offerings once they’re out, just from curiosity sake. And who knows, maybe one will become my new preference for a casual pour. Either way, I’ve gone from someone who was never going to buy that brand again, into someone who will at least once more. With the way Buffalo Trace basic is revered in some circles, can’t you just already hear people who couldn’t get a bottle saying “this Benchmark [insert whatever new expression] is basically Eagle Rare with a different label”?

Exactly, that really was my original point.  I think they are willing to keep the persona of great, hard to get bourbon to drive sales above anything else.  Instead of keeping the quality or meeting demand, we’ll just spin off another hard to get bourbon.

 

On one of the virtual Kentucky Bourbon festival sessions this year Brent Elliott was asked if they were going to do experimental stuff and he replied that they are having a hard time meeting current demand with expected quality.  That is what I would expect.  Beside their two limited editions, you can always get 4R stuff on the shelves in my area, including the new Small Batch Select.  IMO, these are just as good as many of the BT offerings.

[fishnbowljoe]

Ain’t the three tier system just a wonderful thing? Sadder yet is to contemplate just how crazy things might be without the three tier system. .  What’s a mother to do?

 

Biba! Joe

[AlfaLarreo]

1 minute ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Ain’t the three tier system just a wonderful thing? Sadder yet is to contemplate just how crazy things might be without the three tier system. .  What’s a mother to do?

 

Biba! Joe

Drive to the Distilleries once a month, that’s what this mother is doing.  Even that’s a little crazy, people line up at HH at 8:00 in the morning and they hand out tickets for the 11:00 am gift shop opening.

[fishnbowljoe]

9 minutes ago, AlfaLarreo said:

Drive to the Distilleries once a month, that’s what this mother is doing.  Even that’s a little crazy, people line up at HH at 8:00 in the morning and they hand out tickets for the 11:00 am gift shop opening.

Yeah, I know. I’ve been to HH numerous times, but have no interest at all in participating in that debacle. Many of my past trips to HH were highlighted by being personally greeted by Harry Shapira before his passing a number of years ago. I always looked forward to seeing him at the HH Visitor Center. It was a truly great experience, that I sincerely miss.

 

 

[Jazz June]

24 minutes ago, AlfaLarreo said:

Exactly, that really was my original point.  I think they are willing to keep the persona of great, hard to get bourbon to drive sales above anything else.  Instead of keeping the quality or meeting demand, we’ll just spin off another hard to get bourbon.

 

On one of the virtual Kentucky Bourbon festival sessions this year Brent Elliott was asked if they were going to do experimental stuff and he replied that they are having a hard time meeting current demand with expected quality.  That is what I would expect.  Beside their two limited editions, you can always get 4R stuff on the shelves in my area, including the new Small Batch Select.  IMO, these are just as good as many of the BT offerings.

 

As to one of your earlier posts, I was in no way attacking you (hope it did not come off that way). I have just seen too much conspiracy nonsense about allocations posted as facts online (not as much here because well... this place knows bourbon). And your post I quoted hits the on the solution - just drink the products from the distilleries that do adequately supply their product lines (I'm agreeing with you, not telling you something you don't know). The BT fan boys never want to hear this, but that just leaves that other stuff for those willing to dig beyond the BT hype.

 

It is a shame because I would like to give BT some of my money, I just can't find anywhere to buy their stuff. (my lovely control state being partly to blame for that). It is also a shame for BT in the long run because when I recommend products to other people, I never recommend their stuff. Not because it's bad, but because I'm not going to tell some one to go look for a product that is very difficult to find. BT doen't need the help so I'm definitely not saying they are doing something ill advised and I believe they are working hard to get those basic expressions on our shelves, but these effects are also part of why I don't believe they are doing this intentionally by holding back product. Supposedly bourbon drinkers are very brand loyal. If BT doesn't acquire new longer term customers, they might have a problem when all the fad chasers move onto the next popular thing.  And I'm sure they know that - that's why they try to keep older customers happy with the allocations they do have, it's just not possible right now.

[Jazz June]

Also, this thread could be answered with, the Lawrenceburg man is the most content man in bourbonia.

[AlfaLarreo]

26 minutes ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Yeah, I know. I’ve been to HH numerous times, but have no interest at all in participating in that debacle. Many of my past trips to HH were highlighted by being personally greeted by Harry Shapira before his passing a number of years ago. I always looked forward to seeing him at the HH Visitor Center. It was a truly great experience, that I sincerely miss.

 

 

I did not know he passed away.  I met him once, really nice guy.

[fishnbowljoe]

Found the pic of Harry Shapira greeting me at HH.

 

Also one of me and Elmer.

 

One with a couple of Beams.

 

With a number of folks on a FR's barrel pic with Jim Rutledge..

 

Me and Jimmie. Apologies for the blurry pic.

 

With a group from SB at Bardstown Bourbon Company quite a while before they opened to the public. Steve Nally and Garnett Black are pictured. FWIW, David Mandell has stepped down as CEO, and I believe Garnett Black has retired. Both were instrumental in getting the members of SB a couple of tours quite a while before they opened. We were the first group other than potential customers to tour their facility. I'm quite proud to have played a part in making that happen.

 

Not sure what this one is. 

 

Wyoming Whiskey.  Darn! We missed Steve Nally and his wife by a day. They were out of town on business when we were there. 

 

A couple of my barrels at BT.  

 

Behind the scenes at Old Taylor/Castle & Key. A fellow member helped make this possible, and as with the BBC tour, we were the first group other than potential customers to be allowed into the facility before they opened.

 

Here's one.....

 

Oops. Sorry if I got a bit carried away. My bad. 

 

Joe