Survey of finished whiskey

[wadewood]

Breaking bourbon website has an article and survey on finished whiskey.   

So far 53% think that Bourbon finished in another cask type is still bourbon yet 96% think if bourbon has added coloring or flavor then it's no longer bourbon?

What exactly do folks think that secondary cask of port/sherry/etc adds to Bourbon? The answer is flavor and coloring.

In case you want to read/take survey.  https://www.breakingbourbon.com/article/bourbon-the-case-of-mistaken-identity

[Old Hippie]

It is my understanding that it is still bourbon as long as the label states "finished in xxx casks or barrels". I also believe it must follow the aging times in new oak as per the rules of "straight". Time in the finishing cask would not count towards statisfying the straight requirement.

Adding flavors is a whole other kettle of fish as that would disqualify it from being a bourbon.

Yes finishing in other barrels adds some flavors and perhaps color but those are derived from the natural aging process, just like the flavor and color imparted from new oak. 

[GaryT]

It is a fair point.  To me - transparency is the key, such as "straight bourbon finished in" (which denotes that prior to the finishing, it met the legal requirements to be straight bourbon).  Otherwise, disallowing the name 'bourbon' to appear anywhere I think just adds to confusion.  But any type there is a rule, someone will find a loophole.  Hell, there's an entire industry built around that (no offense to any lawyers). 

[Whiskeythink.com]

To me, bourbon finished in other casks is just flavored whiskey. Bourbon is the combo of distilled corn + secondary grains aged in new charred barrels. Thats what bourbon tastes like. Adding it to a used cask simply flavors it like that cask's spirit. The time it sits in that used cask is typically not long enuf to impart much from the wood, only the former spirit. So its just adding flavoring. So I dont think it should qualify as bourbon.

[PaulO]

I remember a while back, Wadewood had suggested a way to mimic finishing - by adding a small amount of wine (like Port) to whiskey.  One day, I'll try that as an experiment.

Anyway, back to topic.

If people want to bottle something where Bourbon is an ingredient (even the main ingredient) - I'm OK, provided it is properly labeled.  That doesn't necessarily mean I want to buy it.

For myself, I'm a big fan of bottled in bond, or other known provenance.

[clearmoon247]

1 hour ago, PaulO said:

I remember a while back, Wadewood had suggested a way to mimic finishing - by adding a small amount of wine (like Port) to whiskey.  One day, I'll try that as an experiment.

Anyway, back to topic.

If people want to bottle something where Bourbon is an ingredient (even the main ingredient) - I'm OK, provided it is properly labeled.  That doesn't necessarily mean I want to buy it.

For myself, I'm a big fan of bottled in bond, or other known provenance.

I've gone down this rabbit hole. I wouldn't exceed 2.5% by volume of wine/spirit into a blend.

 

Also, on the topic, I consider finished bourbon to be a whiskey specialty.  I have zero issue with added color or flavor if its displayed the same way finishing is (e.g. bourbon with added color/flavoring).

 

It's all a matter of transparency. 

[wadewood]

18 hours ago, Old Hippie said:

It is my understanding that it is still bourbon as long as the label states "finished in xxx casks or barrels".

It's not bourbon; it becomes class type 641 whiskey specialities.  I wrote about why in my blog post here.  https://tater-talk.com/2020/02/07/label-says-bourbon-but-its-not/

[wadewood]

18 hours ago, Old Hippie said:

Yes finishing in other barrels adds some flavors and perhaps color but those are derived from the natural aging process, just like the flavor and color imparted from new oak. 

Are you aware of the common practice of recharging barrels?  After the bourbon has been finished in the port cask and dumped out, additional port will be added back to barrel and then the barrel is refilled with bourbon. At what point is this different from adding port directly to the original bourbon barrel? I used port as example but it's done with the other finishing barrels as well.

[CardsandBourbon]

Sort of a moot point for me since they only "finished" bourbon I've ever liked is the PHC finished in the Orange Curacao barrels.

[Skinsfan1311]

I just bought my first finished bourbon.

 

This one was aged 5 years. It finished year 5 in a used Jamaican rum barrel.

 

I'm curious,  (apprehensive?), as to what it's going to taste like.  I'll get back to this thread after I crack it.

 

I paid $71.00 for it, which is ~ $5.00 over MSRP, so I'll see if it's worth it, (to me, anyway).

 

 

[flahute]

6 hours ago, wadewood said:

It's not bourbon; it becomes class type 641 whiskey specialities.  I wrote about why in my blog post here.  https://tater-talk.com/2020/02/07/label-says-bourbon-but-its-not/

Wade is of course correct. The purpose of the label saying "straight bourbon finished in....." is to state what the original product was before the finishing.

[smokinjoe]

33 minutes ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

I just bought my first finished bourbon.

 

This one was aged 5 years. It finished year 5 in a used Jamaican rum barrel.

 

I'm curious,  (apprehensive?), as to what it's going to taste like.  I'll get back to this thread after I crack it.

 

I paid $71.00 for it, which is ~ $5.00 over MSRP, so I'll see if it's worth it, (to me, anyway).

 

 

My experience with rum barrel finished eyes and bourbons  is that it really can be overwhelming to the base spirit.  1 yr in one sounds like a lot.  Tread lightly!  

[Skinsfan1311]

16 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

My experience with rum barrel finished eyes and bourbons  is that it really can be overwhelming to the base spirit.  1 yr in one sounds like a lot.  Tread lightly!  

Tried it last night.   It's barrel proof and the neck pour was pretty hot.   The nose on it screamed "rum!" but, oddly,  the rum notes were not as prevalent as the nose suggested.   After the initial sip, I put a small piece of chipped ice in it, and that really opened things up, and smoothed them over as the ice melted.   Before that it seemed to drink hotter than it's proof, (119).   The water made the difference between an okay and what ended up being a very good pour.  It scratched an itch, that I didn't realize I had and will be comfortable reaching for this bottle, for a change of pace.   Overall, it was a pretty good first foray, into finished whiskey.       Will I run out and start buying whiskey finished in port and sherry casks?   Doubt it, but I might give them a try.

 

[wadewood]

5 hours ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

the neck pour was pretty hot.   

 

I no longer take you seriously.

[smokinjoe]

5 hours ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

Tried it last night.   It's barrel proof and the neck pour was pretty hot.   The nose on it screamed "rum!" but, oddly,  the rum notes were not as prevalent as the nose suggested.   After the initial sip, I put a small piece of chipped ice in it, and that really opened things up, and smoothed them over as the ice melted.   Before that it seemed to drink hotter than it's proof, (119).   The water made the difference between an okay and what ended up being a very good pour.  It scratched an itch, that I didn't realize I had and will be comfortable reaching for this bottle, for a change of pace.   Overall, it was a pretty good first foray, into finished whiskey.       Will I run out and start buying whiskey finished in port and sherry casks?   Doubt it, but I might give them a try.

 

If you really want to try an overwhelming rum finished whiskey from nose to finish, try the Angel’s Envy Rye.  It’s rye finished in rum barrels and it borders on tasting like a Liqueur it’s so thick with sweetness and rum notes.  I can’t say I care for it for this reason, but it’s not bad as a dessert type pour.  
In general, I appreciate the category of finished bourbons and ryes as a worthy line extension of each, and I enjoy drinking both when well crafted.  But, it takes a deft hand to get them right.  It’s a fine line between “too much”, and “too little”, IMO.  If you go the next step with Sherry and Port finishes, I’ll just say I have enjoyed some of the ports more.  But, that’s just my tastes.  

[flahute]

1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

It’s a fine line between “too much”, and “too little”, IMO. 

It's a VERY fine line. I can count on one hand the number of finished whiskies I've liked.

[Skinsfan1311]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

If you really want to try an overwhelming rum finished whiskey from nose to finish, try the Angel’s Envy Rye.  It’s rye finished in rum barrels and it borders on tasting like a Liqueur it’s so thick with sweetness and rum notes.  I can’t say I care for it for this reason, but it’s not bad as a dessert type pour.  
In general, I appreciate the category of finished bourbons and ryes as a worthy line extension of each, and I enjoy drinking both when well crafted.  But, it takes a deft hand to get them right.  It’s a fine line between “too much”, and “too little”, IMO.  If you go the next step with Sherry and Port finishes, I’ll just say I have enjoyed some of the ports more.  But, that’s just my tastes.  

I definitely do not want to be overwhelmed by rum. 

The Angel's Envy finished rye does not sound good to me at all.

I'll really need to "try before I buy" the next finished bourbon or rye.  

Edited February 7, 2021 by Skinsfan1311

[Skinsfan1311]

56 minutes ago, flahute said:

It's a VERY fine line. I can count on one hand the number of finished whiskies I've liked.

I may very well find myself in this camp.

I'm not willing to buy anymore,  unless I have the opportunity to try it first.

[GaryT]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

If you really want to try an overwhelming rum finished whiskey from nose to finish, try the Angel’s Envy Rye.  It’s rye finished in rum barrels and it borders on tasting like a Liqueur it’s so thick with sweetness and rum notes.  I can’t say I care for it for this reason, but it’s not bad as a dessert type pour.  
In general, I appreciate the category of finished bourbons and ryes as a worthy line extension of each, and I enjoy drinking both when well crafted.  But, it takes a deft hand to get them right.  It’s a fine line between “too much”, and “too little”, IMO.  If you go the next step with Sherry and Port finishes, I’ll just say I have enjoyed some of the ports more.  But, that’s just my tastes.  

 

1 hour ago, flahute said:

It's a VERY fine line. I can count on one hand the number of finished whiskies I've liked.

THIS - while I'm in favor of allowing finishing (as long as it is labeled clearly), a big pet peeve of mine is the finishing being too heavy handed.  Although for whatever reason, I have more forgiveness when it comes to Scotch (maybe since the core maturation isn't predetermined as a rule), but with bourbon or rye - I'm looking for deft nuance.  And for some that means less time finishing, and for others more.  Ultimately, it means someone who knows what the hell they're doing.  

 

Case in point - some of the best damn whiskey I've had are either of the two StraightBourbon.com picks of HHSS (labeled as 'Wheated bourbon finished in Cognac Barrels for X months').  I had to go dig up my bottles to remember how long they were finished, and was surprised that they were 19 to 27 months . . .  on an 8 yr old bourbon.  If someone had given me those numbers, I'd have guessed that would be WAAAAAAY to much, and I'd have been dead wrong.

 

There are others I liked (Bowman Port Finished I enjoy, and AECS if it wasn't so expensive), but the number I thought were too much outnumber those easily.

 

Again - if they had to put somewhere on the label "This is a whiskey specialty rather than bourbon because the lawyers are making us", but they also tell me that the whiskey was created by taking 8 yr wheated bourbon and finishing it in cognac casks - if it tastes like this, I couldn't care less.  Other than it might make me dislike lawyers a tiny bit more for making me hunt for the details  

[Harry in WashDC]

On 2/5/2021 at 10:44 PM, PaulO said:

I remember a while back, Wadewood had suggested a way to mimic finishing - by adding a small amount of wine (like Port) to whiskey.  One day, I'll try that as an experiment.

Anyway, back to topic.

If people want to bottle something where Bourbon is an ingredient (even the main ingredient) - I'm OK, provided it is properly labeled.  That doesn't necessarily mean I want to buy it.

For myself, I'm a big fan of bottled in bond, or other known provenance.

Back in 2015 or so I tried mimicking a finish after a StraightBourbon thread started discussing how to "fix" bad bourbon.  I added lots of stuff to an Old Bardstown Estate Bottled 101 proof which I found ABSOLUTELY UNDRINKABLE EVEN WHEN I WAS . . .  I tried adding vanilla extract, decanting into gin bottles, dropping chunks of oak/maple/hickory in it, blending it, using it in cocktails, etc.  NOTHING worked.  Finally poured the stuff down the drain; septic system started smelling weeks later meaning it KILLED all the good bacteria in there.

 

God's proof.

 

RE: professionally finished bourbon or whiskeys/whiskies, I do love some of the finished Irish like Redbreast Lustau, finished scotches like some BUT NOT ALL Compass Box releases, and even the A.Smith Bowman "Isaac Bowman" Port finish.  Angel's Envy I think is too heavy-handed - maybe a couple weeks too long in the "other" barrel for me.   Some of the blends that are finished are just fine, too.

 

The KEY from me is - tell me what the stuff started as (new make, barely straight, almost bonded, etc.), what it was finished IN, and how long it was finished IN IT.  I am not ten years old.  I will be able to figure out from that info whether I'll try it.  BUT!  If you don't give me that basic info, I'll pass.  After all, as I just said, I am not ten years old and, therefore, can afford to go elsewhere.

[PaulO]

Yes, Harry, I had some of that Old Bardstown too.  It tasted like the white inner part of an orange peel.    Totally put me off KBD.

 

Scotch is typically aged in some sort of used barrel.  One criticism I've heard of some brands (like JW red) is the casks are "fatigued".  That is, used over so many times they do not impart any desirable flavors.