Turns out Beam was right about Booker's

[Kepler]

I remember distinctly predicting that along with the huge price increase and limited releases, Beam would increase the age of the whiskey to 8ish years old in order to justify the elevated price and increased prestige. Boy was I wrong.

 

Great points above by several members about similar developments within the Baker's line, and also about how Beam, to their credit, does continue to offer class-leading value in the Knob Creek single barrel variations.  We still have KC to appreciate.  What a glorious value that is.

 

As for me, I still really love to drink Booker's.  I don’t purchase new bottles at the higher price.  But I'm set for as far into my future as I can see, having accumulated 20+ bottles before that price increase hit. I'm good either way 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Kepler

[Jazzhead]

13 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

I respect anyone’s opinion on their determination of worth, as that is subjective and inherently personal.  But, to take it as a personal affront if a company decides to reposition a product at a more premium price is unreasonable, IMO.  Particularly, as in Beam’s case, when they leave a full stable of highly available whiskies of tremendous quality and value to choose from.  
Entirely reasonable to question it from an effective business move, as a good friend argues when we enter our 7th hour of drinking and debating the subject..., but it’s simply a strategy of how they want to position products within their portfolio, and I am fairly certain it was done with great consideration of their customer fan base.   But certainly, consumer perceptions to the brand can be quite powerful when they are negative!  

Agreed,   and at the same time that Beam markets Bookers at a "outrageous"  price it also restores  Knob Creek's traditional 9-year age statement and adds extra-aged and barrel strength variants,  all at prices most here will likely agree are reasonable and represent good value for good bourbon. 

 

Booker's commands its high price because its customers enjoy the conceit of a curated and batched expression.    That's the brilliance here -  the creation of buzz  and demand for each quarterly variation.    

[Jazzhead]

8 hours ago, flahute said:

Good point here about Baker's. It was a hidden favorite of mine in the old form. When they switched to single barrel and the price went up a bit I resisted for a while but eventually caved in. That first bottle I bought was fantastic so I was back in.

The second bottle though was decidedly out of my wheelhouse. Variety is to be expected with single barrels of course but now it has me 'out' again. Turns out there are some advantages to blending for consistency! At the new price it's not worth the risk for me. I'll stick with the KC family.

I still haven't bought a bottle of the new single barrel Bakers but have bought the occasional dusty of the old batched variant.   Generally speaking,  I prefer small batch to single barrel precisely because batching ensures the intended flavor profile without the variation.    But there are exceptions,  of course -  I'm still a sucker for Kentucky Spirit,  whenever I can find it.    

[Kepler]

8 minutes ago, Jazzhead said:

Generally speaking,  I prefer small batch to single barrel precisely because batching ensures the intended flavor profile without the variation.    But there are exceptions,  of course -  I'm still a sucker for Kentucky Spirit,  whenever I can find it.    

 

That's because NO big producer , and I mean all of the big boys, does a better job than Wild Turkey at quality control when it comes to single barrel selection.  When is the last time you got a "bad" Russell's Reserve or even Kentucky Spirit?  That's right - practically never.

This is an area that Heaven Hill could really improve upon:  I'm looking at you Henry McKenna and EWSiB.

[Jazzhead]

6 minutes ago, Kepler said:

 

That's because NO big producer , and I mean all of the big boys, does a better job than Wild Turkey at quality control when it comes to single barrel selection.  When is the last time you got a "bad" Russell's Reserve or even Kentucky Spirit?  That's right - practically never.

This is an area that Heaven Hill could really improve upon:  I'm looking at you Henry McKenna and EWSiB.

Agreed, on all points.   I was on the phone with a buddy the other day,  talking about obscure British trad bands while pouring whiskey.   I refilled my glass with a WTKS and suddenly interrupted our conversation with a "Holy ***** this is great bourbon!" .     WIld Turkey can still do that for me -  make me think my search for the sweet spot of bourbon goodness has been successfully concluded.       

[geclbxf]

6 hours ago, Kepler said:

I remember distinctly predicting that along with the huge price increase and limited releases, Beam would increase the age of the whiskey to 8ish years old in order to justify the elevated price and increased prestige. Boy was I wrong.

 

Great points above by several members about similar developments within the Baker's line, and also about how Beam, to their credit, does continue to offer class-leading value in the Knob Creek single barrel variations.  We still have KC to appreciate.  What a glorious value that is.

 

As for me, I still really love to drink Booker's.  I don’t purchase new bottles at the higher price.  But I'm set for as far into my future as I can see, having accumulated 20+ bottles before that price increase hit. I'm good either way 

 

 

 

 

Lots of great points in this thread -& lots to think about.   I for one do not blame Beam at all for differentiating their bourbon and their price points.   I agree the taters now have bait - and that is not a bad thing at all.   

 

I love it as a bar pour during a business dinner (remember those? LOL) - also helps a newbie you might be having dinner with who wants to drink bourbon and try something different!   It's not an expensive bar our in most places, and it always delivers.   Then if I like it, I can go buy that batch.

 

I have more than a handful on my bar - and I really like them.   It might be right on the line of where price and value meet for me, but I have wasted money on far worse deals!

[Jazzhead]

Heck, it's sheer genius to get folks to buy at least four $90 bottles of your bourbon every year!

[Jazzhead]

49 minutes ago, geclbxf said:

 

 

I have more than a handful on my bar - and I really like them.   It might be right on the line of where price and value meet for me, but I have wasted money on far worse deals!

Actually,  I agree with this.   The marketing is brilliant,  but so is the juice.    The concept of batching the best barrels at the best age to produce the rich peanut-ty profile they are aiming for,  with full disclosure of data for the barrels in the batch for the amusement of us geeks,  is simply a good idea that works.   I agree with some that there's too much emphasis,  with bourbon and rye at least, on age as a determinant and that 6-7 years is when the youth/age balance is best achieved.    Bookers shows what can be done with well-batched bourbon and rye at that age.    Same as OF does with Statesman,  or Sagamore Spirit does with its amazing 6-year blended-mashbill rye I ran across last week.   

Edited April 11, 2021 by Jazzhead

[geclbxf]

38 minutes ago, Jazzhead said:

Actually,  I agree with this.   The marketing is brilliant,  but so is the juice.    The concept of batching the best barrels at the best age to produce the rich peanut-ty profile they are aiming for,  with full disclosure of data for the barrels in the batch for the amusement of us geeks,  is simply a good idea that works.   I agree with some that there's too much emphasis,  with bourbon and rye at least, on age as a determinant and that 6-7 years is when the youth/age balance is best achieved.    Bookers shows what can be done with well-batched bourbon and rye at that age.    Same as OF does with Statesman,  or Sagamore Spirit does with its amazing 6-year blended-mashbill rye I ran across last week.   

Nice to see another Sagamore fan on the board - really well kept secret.   I love the cask strength rye and the Double Oak is incredible.

[Jazzhead]

1 hour ago, geclbxf said:

Nice to see another Sagamore fan on the board - really well kept secret.   I love the cask strength rye and the Double Oak is incredible.

I'm new to them,  and am eager to try more.     The Sagamore blended rye I've been drinking (a store pick from Passion Vines here at the Jersey shore)   blends the classic 95-proof MGP rye with Kentucky-style rye also from MGP,  in an approximate 80/20 ratio.    I compared it side by side with  good  classic MGP  (Templeton 6-year barrel strength,  which is a straight, btw) and could really appreciate how Sagamore has tempered the dill and pumpernickel with a sweet veneer.    Smashing stuff,  and for less than 60 bucks.    

[fishnbowljoe]

The thing that gets me is that this is the third time Beam Suntory has kinda stepped on their dick. Remember when they ran out of Knob Creek back in 2009?  I still have a KC t-shirt somewhere that they sent me. It reads “I SURVIVED THE DROUGHT OF 2009”. Then there was the MM fiasco a few years back when they were running out of aged distillate and decided to drop the proof. There was an uproar and they reversed course. Now this. Beam Suntory even reversed course on this to some extent. They started out by announcing they were going to immediately bump the price to $100.00. Again there was an uproar, and they decided to change the price in phases. Things that make you go hmmmm.

 

Biba! Joe

[bayouredd]

I kind of see this a bit skewed. Since Booker's has never done it for me, never found it very balanced, I consider it a tater diversion. If you give the taters something to chase, they leave the KC or Bakers alone. I even wonder if there are some thoughts from the distillers to this effect.

 

I know that there are some Booker fan here, but I don't find it better than ECBP or KC120 which are competitors to my palate. I am a JB fan but can leave the Bookers in pursuit of something I like more...

[Guss West]

Every time this Booker's Tater Talk comes up, I'm glad that the kind folk here made me aware of the price hike a few years ago just in time for me to buy two cases of Toogie's Invitation; which happened to still be available at my LLS and is one of the best Booker's batches I've tried. 

 

While I, too, tend to prefer the KC profile to Bookers; I admit it is nice having enough of it to not feel I'm missing out on the $100 bottles.  

 

For $100 american bucks, give me two handles of KC9 every.single.time.  

[Kepler]

6 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

 ... or Sagamore Spirit does with its amazing 6-year blended-mashbill rye I ran across last week.   

 

 

5 hours ago, geclbxf said:

Nice to see another Sagamore fan on the board - really well kept secret.   I love the cask strength rye and the Double Oak is incredible.

 

I have a Sagamore 6yr rye I bought some time ago that I've yet to open.  You all just had to go and do it,,...dang, here goes another rye on deck in the line to get opened next

[Skinsfan1311]

Back in the day, I bought a bottle of Booker's and didn't care for it.

A couple years later, I bought a different release.

I still don't like it.

 

[mal00768]

4 hours ago, Kepler said:

 

 

 

I have a Sagamore 6yr rye I bought some time ago that I've yet to open.  You all just had to go and do it,,...dang, here goes another rye on deck in the line to get opened next

This thread is now about Sagamore rye.

 

I have a Sagamore rye that spent 4 years in new oak and then 3 years and 1 month in an Armangnac barrel. It is fantastic.

Edited April 12, 2021 by mal00768

[Skinsfan1311]

1 hour ago, mal00768 said:

This thread is now about Sagamore rye.

 

I have a Sagamore rye that spent 4 years in new oak and then 3 years and 1 month in an Armangnac barrel. It is fantastic.

I'm going to have to revisit this.  Years ago,  I was gifted a bottle of Sagamore rye, but I don't remember it being that remarkable.  

The distillery is nearby.  Time for a field trip!

[mal00768]

43 minutes ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

I'm going to have to revisit this.  Years ago,  I was gifted a bottle of Sagamore rye, but I don't remember it being that remarkable.  

The distillery is nearby.  Time for a field trip!

My bottle is from a special project between Julio’s and Sagamore. I think Julio’s provided the Armagnac barrel. Geeten can correct me if I am wrong. But Sagamore does have they’re own cognac finished rye.

[Skinsfan1311]

13 minutes ago, mal00768 said:

My bottle is from a special project between Julio’s and Sagamore. I think Julio’s provided the Armagnac barrel. Geeten can correct me if I am wrong. But Sagamore does have they’re own cognac finished rye.

Thanks!

[MJWP]

On 4/10/2021 at 2:05 PM, Jazz June said:

Considering they put out Knob Creek 15 year at 100 proof and $100, the $90 current MSRP for Booker's does look like more of a re-positioning than just a price hike. Knob Creek SiB is 9 years old and sitting pretty close to barrel proof at $50. Nonetheless, I too don't buy Booker's any more and the last two bottles I have on hand are batches 2016-05 and 2015-02 (which I think is the last 7+ year release).

 

They dropped the number of releases per year, but I wonder if they dropped the overall volume of Booker's they release. And judging from VA ABC inventory, it still sells out, so yes, their price increase doesn't seem to have hurt them in the short term. If it were on par with Elijah Craig BP enjoyment wise for me, I might buy some at $90 or at least when there was a sale or other deal. I know some who still love Booker's, so they retained some of their longer term fans. I'd be interested if they raised the age some, assuming they left it around a $90-100 price point. Booker's 30th was quite good and the KSBW Little Book was spectacular, so they have some good stuff in their barrels. But Booker's LE releases are likely to be more like $200+.

 

All of the distillers had under-priced products in the transition from the bad times to the boom. I agree with smokinjoe that for them to adjust prices in light of the crazy increase in demand is hardly unreasonable. But I also agree that we don't have to like it. And frankly, just on a spec comparison, $90 is too high. Look at Rare Breed, Elijah Craig BP, Maker's Mark CS which all run in the $50-60 range. Although there are certainly counter-points, such as Woodford Reserve BP at $130. I'd say Beam has shown some love for the consumer while obviously also trying to cash in. Basically everyone has been "right" in raising prices in this run away boom. We will see how smart they are when things level out some.

I personally enjoy KC SB as much as Bookers at half the price. 

[BigRich]

On 4/11/2021 at 2:45 PM, bayouredd said:

I kind of see this a bit skewed. Since Booker's has never done it for me, never found it very balanced, I consider it a tater diversion. If you give the taters something to chase, they leave the KC or Bakers alone. I even wonder if there are some thoughts from the distillers to this effect.

 

I know that there are some Booker fan here, but I don't find it better than ECBP or KC120 which are competitors to my palate. I am a JB fan but can leave the Bookers in pursuit of something I like more...

Preach!  I can find Bookers almost anywhere I look locally and I haven't bought one since the hike.  If others want it, more power to them. But I barely consider it a $55 bottle of bourbon.  Pay $100?  To quote Bill Engvall..."Here's your sign."

[Mattk]

On 4/11/2021 at 9:50 PM, Skinsfan1311 said:

I'm going to have to revisit this.  Years ago,  I was gifted a bottle of Sagamore rye, but I don't remember it being that remarkable.  

The distillery is nearby.  Time for a field trip!

Let's go. I usually work 6 days a week. But could definitely take off a Saturday for a distillery trip with some members.

[The Black Tot]

I don't know whether "We have more demand than supply, let's raise the price and push the premiumization" is necessarily within the zip code of genius or brilliance, but it has certainly made reasonable business sense at the top of a market in which all (established) ships have been raised by an unprecedented tide, and no price hike seems to be too much to stop buyers (forum bunker curmudgeons such as myself excluded).

 

The real test is yet to come, when the production surge hits maturity, and the cutthroat competition starts. None of these bourbons mentioned in this thread will be able to hold their prices at these alpine heights when that happens. The maturity surge is getting fairly close now - certainly if Booker's is content to keep competing in the 6yr space.

 

I'm not even sure Booker's can hold 100 once vaccinations get us to the point where people have to (get to) again fit drinking/dining out and taking vacations back into their annual budgets.

 

It seems a world away now, but there will again come a time when Booker's must sit next to a regular stock of Stagg Jr, ECBP, 4RSiB, and Russell's Reserve Single Barrel. 

 

The fans Beam kicks on the way up, they will have to again kiss on the way back down.

 

But by all means they should get every cent they can get while general market sanity remains on leave.

[Harry in WashDC]

On 4/10/2021 at 7:29 PM, GeeTen said:

 

No, no and no thank you.  I'm not THAT drunk, yet.  

 

LOL, Frank.  FWIW, I've recently found some 36 month KSBW 80 proofers I will buy and drink before I buy Old Tub 100 again.  Uh, my first bottle of Baker's 7 SiB in the new bottle arrived today - $56.  I hid it in a handful of $9 Hugl Gruner Veltliners my wife wanted me to buy.  I still have some wine bottle Baker's in the bunker which I'm saving for a rainy day.

[Skinsfan1311]

3 hours ago, Mattk said:

Let's go. I usually work 6 days a week. But could definitely take off a Saturday for a distillery trip with some members.

Sounds like a plan!