Aging Bourbon.

[CardsandBourbon]

I'm on a boating forum and every so often someone posts a question about bourbon which I usually try to answer.  In a recent post I made a comment about generally not liking younger (2-3) year old bourbon since it hasn't had time to develop the nuances of longer aged bourbon.  Here is one of the responses:

 

Smaller distilleries aren't aging in 55 gallon barrels. You can age in much smaller barrels which have a much higher surface area by volume to lower the aging length. We have a local distillery that ages in 10 gallon barrels. I was talking with the head distiller about it. In those barrels you can get roughly 1 year worth of aging in 2.5 months. Lower volume of sales, so you can get away with it.

My friend ages in 3 gallon barrels where 1 month is roughly 1 year in a 55 gallon barrel. He'll let his batches age for a year and the flavor is off the charts.

[BigRich]

He is mistaken.

 

They may pick up color and wood flavors faster but they do not age or mature faster in the sense that you are referencing.

Edited May 28, 2021 by BigRich

[CardsandBourbon]

Yeah, I know.  I thought about correcting him but it would probably just dissolve into a pissing contest and I wouldn't be able to change his mind so why bother.

[HoustonNit]

20 minutes ago, CardsandBourbon said:

Yeah, I know.  I thought about correcting him but it would probably just dissolve into a pissing contest and I wouldn't be able to change his mind so why bother.

Wise man.

Edited May 28, 2021 by HoustonNit

[CardsandBourbon]

4 minutes ago, HoustonNit said:

Wide man.

Hey, I know I could stand to lose a few pounds but you didn't have to point it out. 

[HoustonNit]

Oh man one of my better typos.  If anyone was to call me a four letter word that starts with w, it’s much more likely to be wide and not wise.

[mal00768]

At this point, I would think that the legacy distillers would all be using smaller barrels if such assertions were true. They could flood the market with the pappiez.

[CardsandBourbon]

3 hours ago, HoustonNit said:

Oh man one of my better typos.  If anyone was to call me a four letter word that starts with w, it’s much more likely to be wide and not wise.

No harm.  I actually got a pretty good chuckle out of it.  I guess I'm both wide and wise.

[PaulO]

Next Thanksgiving, this guy can cook his whole turkey in the microwave oven.

I hear that's much faster than a conventional oven at 325 degrees for many hours.

See if it tastes the same. 

[dwg13013]

Old Forester (if I remember right) ages under heat to shorten the needed time.

If they get they get the taste right, I will drink whatever the age. 

 

I may not be a good judge.

I was told there was a world of difference between the 12 Glenfiddich and the 18.

I liked them both a lot, but really couldn't tell much difference.  Except for price.

 

Jefferson Ocean puts the barrels on a ship, and goes around the world.  I could tell a difference between Ocean and very small batch.  What started the voyage 

[0895]

Soon bars will just be pouring white dog into wooden cups for us.

 

Just let it sit for 30 minutes and you'll have some well aged bourbon.

[mal00768]

15 minutes ago, 0895 said:

Soon bars will just be pouring white dog into wooden cups for us.

 

Just let it sit for 30 minutes and you'll have some well aged bourbon.

I think it says something about the boom. Many people are buying bourbon due to fomo when they should just buy vodka or gin.

[smokinjoe]

19 hours ago, CardsandBourbon said:

Yeah, I know.  I thought about correcting him but it would probably just dissolve into a pissing contest and I wouldn't be able to change his mind so why bother.

I so understand your dilemma and don’t blame you for not fully engaging there.  We’ve all been there, unfortunately.  But, I tend to come away from them disheartened, because, like in your case this was on a public forum with people listening who don’t know swat about whiskey, those people now will remember that BS from that guy.  It’s now part of their “knowledge” of the subject.  So the next time they hear another fool spouting the same crap, they’ll pipe up with, Yeah, that’s right.  I’ve heard that before, too.  And so, the disinformation of the craft myth is furthered.  That’s how they do it.  Spout the illegitimate narrative loudly and repeatedly, and the lie becomes accepted.  
 

 

[GeeTen]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

 And so, the disinformation of the craft myth is furthered.  That’s how they do it.  Spout the illegitimate narrative loudly and repeatedly, and the lie becomes accepted.  
 

 

There's a lot of that goin' on around the country, lately IMHO  . . . . . . . .   

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by GeeTen

[0895]

You guys are looking at this all wrong.

Personally I'm a big fan of people buying up all the craft stuff due to misinformation.

The people who actually care will do their own research/make their own educated decisions.

[PaulO]

11 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

I so understand your dilemma and don’t blame you for not fully engaging there.  We’ve all been there, unfortunately.  But, I tend to come away from them disheartened, because, like in your case this was on a public forum with people listening who don’t know swat about whiskey, those people now will remember that BS from that guy.  It’s now part of their “knowledge” of the subject.  So the next time they hear another fool spouting the same crap, they’ll pipe up with, Yeah, that’s right.  I’ve heard that before, too.  And so, the disinformation of the craft myth is furthered.  That’s how they do it.  Spout the illegitimate narrative loudly and repeatedly, and the lie becomes accepted.  
 

 

Yeah, it's like the fable The Emperor's New Clothes.

Someone has to speak up.

 

An interesting question might be - what have you tried, or what do you think is good.

Some blind side by sides with the old stand byes could prove iconoclastic.  

[kaiserhog]

There is a big difference between age and maturation. 

[HoustonNit]

On 5/29/2021 at 8:40 AM, dwg13013 said:

Old Forester (if I remember right) ages under heat to shorten the needed time.

If they get they get the taste right, I will drink whatever the age. 

 

I may not be a good judge.

I was told there was a world of difference between the 12 Glenfiddich and the 18.

I liked them both a lot, but really couldn't tell much difference.  Except for price.

 

Jefferson Ocean puts the barrels on a ship, and goes around the world.  I could tell a difference between Ocean and very small batch.  What started the voyage 

Yes apparently OF and thought maybe other BF distilleries like Jack use climate controlled rickhouses.  
 

I think fit the Glenfiddich 12 vs. 18 I would imagine it’s not just age.  With the 18 being a premium brand they probably use much better casks for aging.  More first fills, Sherry casks etc.

 

Jefferson Voyage I would expect the natural rocking at sea would help with the whiskey being in contact with the would and would help with aging.  Most rickhouses rotate there barrels for the same reason.  Still at few months on a boat doesn’t makeup for years of aging.

[dwg13013]

8 hours ago, HoustonNit said:

Yes apparently OF and thought maybe other BF distilleries like Jack use climate controlled rickhouses.  
 

I think fit the Glenfiddich 12 vs. 18 I would imagine it’s not just age.  With the 18 being a premium brand they probably use much better casks for aging.  More first fills, Sherry casks etc.

 

Jefferson Voyage I would expect the natural rocking at sea would help with the whiskey being in contact with the would and would help with aging.  Most rickhouses rotate there barrels for the same reason.  Still at few months on a boat doesn’t makeup for years of aging.

I would agree on the Glenfiddich.  While I could tell a difference, to me only, it was not improvement enough to pay 4 times the price.

 

What I had read gives me the impression Jefferson blends bourbons from other distilleries,  to make very small batch, so may already be aged. 

While I could tell a difference, I preferred the lesser cost very small batch. 

[clearmoon247]

10 hours ago, HoustonNit said:

Yes apparently OF and thought maybe other BF distilleries like Jack use climate controlled rickhouses.  
 

I think fit the Glenfiddich 12 vs. 18 I would imagine it’s not just age.  With the 18 being a premium brand they probably use much better casks for aging.  More first fills, Sherry casks etc.

 

Jefferson Voyage I would expect the natural rocking at sea would help with the whiskey being in contact with the would and would help with aging.  Most rickhouses rotate there barrels for the same reason.  Still at few months on a boat doesn’t makeup for years of aging.

Most distilleries actually don't move their barrels around while aging. They strategically place their barrels to have varying environmental impact over the years.

 

The main exception to the rule is Makers Mark who attempt to cycle their products to have a more uniform product.  

 

Jeffersons is using the ocean voyages to enhance the flavors of their already aged barrels. 

 

Also, the decision to climate control the rick houses varies from distillery to distillery, but more often than not they rely on natural temperatures & humidity, coupled with controlling the windows for airflow.

[flahute]

On 5/29/2021 at 6:40 AM, dwg13013 said:

Old Forester (if I remember right) ages under heat to shorten the needed time.

If they get they get the taste right, I will drink whatever the age. 

 

I may not be a good judge.

I was told there was a world of difference between the 12 Glenfiddich and the 18.

I liked them both a lot, but really couldn't tell much difference.  Except for price.

 

Jefferson Ocean puts the barrels on a ship, and goes around the world.  I could tell a difference between Ocean and very small batch.  What started the voyage 

To be more accurate, Old Forester heat cycles their warehouses. They heat them up to a certain temperature during the winter and then let them cool down to ambient temperature and then repeat.

They do this to increase the number of cycles where the distillate gets driven into the wood and then retreats when it gets cold. This allows them to release bourbon as young as 4+ years old that has more flavor and complexity than other bourbons of a similar age the rely on natural weather. It should not however be confused with rapid aging as a minimum amount of oxidation over time needs to occur. OF's 4+ year bourbon, while it can be quite good, will never be confused for a properly and well aged 12+ year bourbon. I'm not saying that one is inherently better than the other. Just that they are different.

[dwg13013]

6 hours ago, flahute said:

To be more accurate, Old Forester heat cycles their warehouses. They heat them up to a certain temperature during the winter and then let them cool down to ambient temperature and then repeat.

They do this to increase the number of cycles where the distillate gets driven into the wood and then retreats when it gets cold. This allows them to release bourbon as young as 4+ years old that has more flavor and complexity than other bourbons of a similar age the rely on natural weather. It should not however be confused with rapid aging as a minimum amount of oxidation over time needs to occur. OF's 4+ year bourbon, while it can be quite good, will never be confused for a properly and well aged 12+ year bourbon. I'm not saying that one is inherently better than the other. Just that they are different.

So has OF under any product or brand, used the heat cycle method, and gone 10 or more years ?

Or on the 10 year products, the improvement may not be enough for the cost ?

[flahute]

2 hours ago, dwg13013 said:

So has OF under any product or brand, used the heat cycle method, and gone 10 or more years ?

Or on the 10 year products, the improvement may not be enough for the cost ?

Birthday Bourbon is usually 12 years but it has non heat cycled product blended in. Some other one off LE's have been double digit aged but it's the same.

Pure heat cycled product can't go too high in age because evaporative loss is too much.

[Old Hippie]

Actually it is both right and wrong. He is right in that smaller barrels increases the wood surface to whiskey ratio and speeds up the  interaction with the wood.  Some use harmonic vibrations to speed up the interaction and as mentioned Jefferson puts it on a boat around the equator to benefit from the hot temperatures and the exaggerated motion that the ship goes through. Old Forester and Woodford both use heat cycled warehouses but neither tries to release a young whiskey. Woodford is generally 5 to 7 years old and OF usually is 5 to 6 years. But to my knowledge, no one has figured out how to speed up time and oxidation to smooth out the whiskey.

With very few exceptions young whiskeys (2 yrs) taste a bit green and harsh to me.

[flahute]

33 minutes ago, Old Hippie said:

 But to my knowledge, no one has figured out how to speed up time and oxidation to smooth out the whiskey.

With very few exceptions young whiskeys (2 yrs) taste a bit green and harsh to me.

Exactly this right here.