Any Experts on KSBW & TTB designation of a Distilled Spirits Specialty (DSS)?

[GaryT]

From time to time, I'll come upon a new whiskey that on the label indicates it is 'Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey', but bears no age statement - which my brain processes as very likely 4 years old.  I get it - there's lots of KSBW that doesn't have an age statement and is more than 4 yrs old; but my point is that my expectation is that it is a MINIMUM of 4 years old.

 

I was trying some samples of Broken Barrel Small Batch, which reads "Broken Barrel Small Batch Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey Finished With Broken Barrel Staves".  I smell it and it smells pretty young, and I can't find any age statement on the label.  I reach out to inquire, and the response I got was:

 

The Bourbon (includes Small Batch, Cask Strength, California Oak, Reserve Oak Series), because it is stave finished versus barrel finished, is actually not allowed to have any further age statement beyond “Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey…” and is actually registered with the TTB as a Distilled Spirits Specialty (DSS). Therefore, it does not state anywhere else that it is aged 2-3 years (it’s actual age). 

 

Here is the TTB label: https://ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=21048001000575

 

I've searched the forum, and hadn't found a similar discussion, but is this response accurate?  Seems like this is misleading to informed consumers, and just curious if this is a legit loophole, or misunderstanding.  The "not allowed to have any age statement" part strikes me as strange, since my layperson understanding is that to be CALLED KSBW requires an age statement if under 4 years old???

 

Thoughts?

[smokinjoe]

I think Wade could wrap this up in about 2 minutes, and piss off 222 people at the same time…  

 

 

[Marekv8]

Based on the wording used on NOBLE OAK, it probably should say BOURBON WHISKEY FINISHED IN OAK STAVES.

[GaryT]

1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

I think Wade could wrap this up in about 2 minutes, and piss off 222 people at the same time…  

 

 

DUH!  I forgot to tag @wadewood because you're right - he'd know straight away!  Or maybe @cowdery might weigh in? 

[flahute]

If labeled Straight it has to be minimum 4 yrs if not age statement and minimum 2 with an age statement. My understanding is that the bourbon is what it is before any finishing and that you are allowed to state what it was before the finishing. If they are using the word Straight and it is less than 4yrs it has to comply with the rules and have an age statement. 

[MShoulder]

If it really is a "Distilled Spirit Specialty", their response appears correct.  Here's the text from the TTB site covering age on the labels of distilled spirits:

Quote

Other distilled spirits.

(1) Statements regarding age or maturity or similar statements or representations on labels for all other spirits, except neutral spirits, are permitted only when the distilled spirits are stored in an oak barrel and, once dumped from the barrel, subjected to no treatment besides mixing with water, filtering, and bottling. If batches are made from barrels of spirits of different ages, the label may only state the age of the youngest spirits.

(2) Statements regarding age or maturity or similar statements as to neutral spirits (except for grain spirits as stated in paragraph (c) of this section) are prohibited from appearing on any label.

The problems seems to me that having the phrase  "Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey"  rather than "Distilled Spirit" would lead the consumer to believe they were actually purchasing KSBW, and thus is should follow KSBW rules.  It all seems to go back to that age-old question "Is a Finished Bourbon still a Bourbon?", but in this case, they seem to want to have their cake and eat it, too, at least from a labeling standpoint.

[VAGentleman]

On 2/22/2022 at 9:00 AM, MShoulder said:

If it really is a "Distilled Spirit Specialty", their response appears correct.  Here's the text from the TTB site covering age on the labels of distilled spirits:

The problems seems to me that having the phrase  "Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey"  rather than "Distilled Spirit" would lead the consumer to believe they were actually purchasing KSBW, and thus is should follow KSBW rules.  It all seems to go back to that age-old question "Is a Finished Bourbon still a Bourbon?", but in this case, they seem to want to have their cake and eat it, too, at least from a labeling standpoint.

Agreed a Distilled Spirit Specialty is not allowed to have an age statement according to the TTB https://www.ttb.gov/images/pdfs/spirits_bam/chapter8.pdf But the fact that they say Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey on the label means they need to put an age statement.  I don't see how you can have it both ways

[Shizzy]

TTB overwhelmed with labels and just letting things fly on by.  I swear they have two squirrels in a room approving labels.

[BigRich]

18 hours ago, Shizzy said:

TTB overwhelmed with labels and just letting things fly on by.  I swear they have two squirrels in a room approving labels.

Maybe they are hiring.  I could do with a career change.  But if it was me, I'd look at 75% of the submissions and be like "get the f#$k outta here with that bull$hit."

[smokinjoe]

7 hours ago, BigRich said:

Maybe they are hiring.  I could do with a career change.  But if it was me, I'd look at 75% of the submissions and be like "get the f#$k outta here with that bull$hit."

I imagine that would go something like this…

 

 

[BigRich]

21 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

I imagine that would go something like this…

 

 

I should change my LinkedIn profile picture to that one.

[BigRich]

My favorite memory of that was Vosgar going around all weekend calling me “Fuck You.”  

[smokinjoe]

Just now, BigRich said:

My favorite memory of that was Vosgar going around all weekend calling me “Fuck You.”  

Heehee!  Hey, Fuck you.  Come over here for a sec.

Fuck you, what are you drinking?

Where did Fuck you put that bottle of Stagg?

 

[smokinjoe]

Vosgar had a subdued and very clever wit.  Great guy.  I miss him.  

[BigRich]

6 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

Vosgar had a subdued and very clever wit.  Great guy.  I miss him.  

Yeah.  As we prepare to go back to Bardstown in April it keeps occurring to me that he won’t be there.

[wadewood]

Class type 641 whiskey specialties is weird one.  If you look up Ch 8 of the TTB BAM there is a chart that shows DSS are not allowed to carry an age statement.  However in the TTB modernization act the TTB said that it agrees all time spent in barrels should count towards the age statement.  However they have not changed the TTB BAM.  They have approved plenty of finished whiskeys that have an age statement and rejected others.  Very inconsistent.

[Shizzy]

On 3/15/2022 at 10:05 AM, wadewood said:

  Very inconsistent.

Shocker.