Best tasting inexpensive bourbon?

[brian12069]

error?

[Bourbaki_Bourbon]

Well, there's nothing better than good, cheap bourbon,and believe it or not, there is such a thing.

That's practically sig material!

[angelshare]

Well, I studied the label and all I could come up with is "Old Line" sounds a little funny. Is it supposed to say "Old TIME?"

[HGB3]

You got it! I think that the graphics folks misread the copyrighters "old time" for "old line"; old line would be an unusual phrase, IMHO.

[voigtman]

Any plausible/possible connection with Maryland, which is nicknamed "The Old Line State"? Found this with Google:

According to some historians, Gen. George Washington bestowed the name "Old Line State" and thereby associated Maryland with its regular line troops, the Maryland Line, who served courageously in many Revolutionary War battles.

source: http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/mdmanual/01glance/html/nickname.html

Cheers, Ed V.

Editted: pesky quotation marks!

[HGB3]

Interesting about Maryland, but wouldn't there need to be a link between Old Weller and Maryland?

[voigtman]

I agree. It's probably just a mistake of "Old Line" for "Old Time", as stated, but it's curious that "Old Line" actually has a meaning. Ed V.

[dgonano]

Maryland is still referred as "The Old Line State" with the meaning as previously mentioned. But is the label erroneous? For those who have in their possesion Sally Van Winkle Campbell's book "But Always Fine Bourbon", a glance at the back cover will reveal a bottle of Old Weller from years past with the same "Old Line Sour Mash" phrase. The inside back cover is full of old labels of which one refers to "W.L. Weller and Sons' "Potomac" Whiskey. So it is quite possible that the whiskey formula is based on an old Maryland recipe or mashing process.

[bourbonv]

The Weller family came to Kentucky from Maryland so there is a Weller connection to the state.

Old Line probably refers to a whiskey made and bottled like they did before prohibition as in "Line of Goods". I will have to go to the U.D. Archive and look at some of the old label books to see what they have on the original labels.

Mike Veach

[Gillman]

Dave that is interesting since the "Maryland process" or "Potomac style" (see e.g., the Heaven Hill explanation on its web site) referred as far as I know to rye whiskey, possibly (this per a suggestion Chuck made) blended rye whiskeys. Whereas Weller is famous precisely for not containing any rye!

Gary

[Gillman]

This makes sense to me, that Old Line was a nod to traditional methods of manufacture and possibly the home State of the Weller family, but not as intending any specific reference to rye whiskey since the very mashbill would preclude such idea (unless wheated bourbon was known in one or more parts of old Maryland, which is possible, I guess).

Gary

[Dave_in_Canada]

I'm no label authority, but I don't think there's anything mysterious going on here.

I've always understood "old line" to speak of tradition. Webster defines old-line as "1. having a reputation or authority based on seniority" and "2. adhering to traditional policies or practices."

[boone]

I held the (rated job)...label machine operator. I did this job for nearly 7 years. My job was to make sure that the product and the label were correct. The labels are fine tuned before they ever get to the bottle. It amazed me that, in all of those years, I found "one mistake". A typing error. It was on T.W. Samuels, BIB...the small print said 90 proof... Major mistake...As most of ya know, BIB is 100 proof. None got out the door.

Bettye Jo

[cowdery]

Remember that the W. L. Weller company was a wholesaler and rectifier prior to Prohibition, and not a distiller. As such, if there ever was a Weller formula it probably was a blending formula, not a straight whiskey mash bill. Also, as Mike knows because he told me, the Wellers came to Kentucky very early. Although they may have kept ties to Maryland, they were in Kentucky when the whiskey we now know as bourbon evolved into its present form.

It's possible, even likely, that both the Fitzgerald and Weller brands were rye-based prior to Prohibition. The 'whisper of wheat' was a Pappy Van Winkle thing and Sally states that the recipe came from the Stitzel family. Stitzel made whiskey for Weller prior to Prohibition, so Weller may have been selling some wheat recipe whiskey then, but we don't know for sure. Post Prohibition, during the Stitzel-Weller era, Weller and Fitzgerald were the same whiskey, at least so far as mash bill is concerned.

Speaking of whiskey recipes, Sam Cecil reports that the H. E. Pogue Distillery in Maysville made in the late 19th century "Royal Club," a rye and wheat whiskey.

[bourbonv]

Chuck,

You are right. I should have made clearer that there is a Weller connection to Maryland, in that they came from Maryland (where the family owned the first match making business in the state according to a family genealogist) in 1796. The family then branched again with another branch going to Ohio and entering the pottery business. I doubt this connection was important to Pappy Van Winkle when he created "Weller Original Barrel Proof 107" in the 1950's. This is the brand that later became Weller Antique. I think the term "Old Line" has more to do with getting barrel proof whiskey before prohibition as in their "Old Line of Products".

I think the Van Winkle/Farnsley/Stitzel version of the wheat recipe was developed in the early 30's as a whiskey that would age faster or at least taste better at an early age. It is interersting that the same Beam who was the master distiller at that Story Avenue Plant at this time, also was the first master distiller at Maker's Mark.

Mike Veach

[Gillman]

Thanks, most interesting data and speculations.

This is not the thread for it but at some point I would like to initiate a discussion about whether wheated bourbon is "true" bourbon. I put true in quotes because clearly it has a lineage going back generations if not longer and of course it meets the legal definition. Still, having tasted many wheaters and many rye-recipe whiskeys, I am starting to believe that wheated bourbon isn't truly traditional bourbon, that it was probably developed to appeal to the (undoubtedly large) range of consumers who could not develop the taste for the tang of rye recipe bourbon. Since straight rye came first, it is in the pantheon for me, ditto rye recipe bourbon. But wheated bourbon, even the best I have had, lacks something, it tastes "unfinished" to me. I am not sure if it is in the pantheon albeit (as for other spirits which are, or are related to, whiskey) it has a certain history and many devotees.

Gary

[Gillman]

Mike, did Sam Cecil have anything to do possibly with developing the wheated recipe?

Gary

[Gillman]

Just to develop my own thoughts further, I find Mike Veach's comment about wheated bourbon having possibly been developed to age faster and taste better at younger ages very thought-provoking.

Gary

[cowdery]

In the "whiskey debate" in the current issue of WHISKY, Ken Weber of Buffalo Trace makes some similar comments, at least about wheat recipe bourbons becoming palatable earlier in the aging cycle. Remember too that although no one makes it today, "wheat whiskey" (as in a mash of at least 51 percent wheat) is recognized in the federal regulations. The suggestion in the Cecil note about Pogue's "rye and wheat whiskey," is that either those were the only grains used or were primary. I believe that at least at one time in recent memory, a distillery in Wales was making a wheat whiskey. I know of no other. This is, of course, different from a wheated bourbon.

It should be noted that in the federal regulations defining bourbon, no mention is made of any grain being required other than corn, although there is a general requirement that (I'm paraphrasing) a bourbon has to be what people expect a bourbon to be. Conceivably, at least as far as the federal regs for bourbon are concerned, you could call a 100 percent corn whiskey "bourbon," or one flavored with oats, unmalted barley, rice (imagine!) or some heirloom grain such as kamut, so long as corn was the primary grain. What makes bourbon bourbon is the corn. Rye became the primary flavor grain but I believe others were always used, either based on the preferences of the distiller or availability.

[Gillman]

Since rye whiskey came first, the other types are subsets, this is true from a taste standpoint as well since corn is less flavorful than rye. You can reduce the rye and increase the corn (or wheat, presumably) but the taste diminishes - this can be seen from wheated bourbon which (good as it is) seems one-dimensional in relation to rye whiskey or rye recipe bourbon. Rye gives it the top notes, in other words. Even distilled at bourbon proof (under 160 proof) corn alone seems gentle in taste. Wheated bourbon is an honorable member of the bourbon family, but to me is a slightly eccentric relation.. True, using a majority of other grains produces legal categories of straight whiskey but that isn't bourbon.. I believe the wheat whiskeys died out due to a relative lack of flavor. Corn whiskey has almost died as a category..

Gary

[cowdery]

Spoken like a Canadian. When you think about it that way (and a valid way it is) bourbon and Canadian aren't that different. Both use corn spirit as a base and flavor it with rye. Wheated bourbons are candy-like. Rye bourbons are the more complex and, ultimately, the more interesting of the two. So why not straight rye? Maybe too much of a good thing.

[Gillman]

Well put, Chuck!

Gary

[bourbonv]

Gary,

Not that I am aware of.

Mike Veach

[bourbonv]

Gary,

Evidently you missed my post in the History section with an additional quote from Kentucky Fowler. Recipe, before prohibition, is not what made whiskey "bourbon", but aging the whiskey made it "bourbon". According to what they are saying the advertisement a 100% rye whiskey or barley malt whiskey could be called "bourbon" if it was aged in charred oak barrels.

My studies show that it was the Taft decision that put recipe into the definition of "bourbon".

Mike Veach

[brendaj]

Gary,

developing the wheated recipe?

This is a question of interest to me. I have long wondered, who was the first distiller to use wheat, and the story of why.

My information takes me to W.L. Weller and stops.

Was Weller the first? Chuck, Mike, anyone?

Bj