Toasting / barrel charring, any experts here?

[Obree]

From what I have found, toasting makes certain flavors available from the oak, and charring does the same to others. Now, if I understand the coopering process correctly, there is already quite some heat applied when actually bending the wood into shape for a barrel. Would this already be toasting the wood? In other words, are, given that heat treatment, are in fact all barrels toasted? Any expert input here?

[Old Hippie]

It is my understanding that toasting involves high heat inside the barrel for 10 to 40 minutes depending on the level of toast required. Toasting goes deeper into the wood than charring. For bringing the barrel into shape I would imagine very little heat is required. A cable tightens bringing the staves in.

[Skinsfan1311]

We toured a cooperage a few years ago and watched them char some barrels.   II forget how long they took to do so, but I'm pretty sure that it was only a few minutes.  Any longer, and those barrels would've burned up.   It was a great tour and we learned a lot about the process.   We also watched them make the barrels, before charring and there was no heat involved.   The process is very interesting.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Skinsfan1311

[Obree]

33 minutes ago, Old Hippie said:

It is my understanding that toasting involves high heat inside the barrel for 10 to 40 minutes depending on the level of toast required. Toasting goes deeper into the wood than charring. For bringing the barrel into shape I would imagine very little heat is required. A cable tightens bringing the staves in.

That is the difficulty here, I see some conflicting things in what techniques are used. But from what I read, it seems heat up to 300 Fahrenheit can be used when curving the wood,  and this can be for up to 20 minutes or so, it seems. So significant time and temperature. That must surely have an impact on the wood, very much like toasting, in my view?

[Obree]

36 minutes ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

We toured a cooperage a few years ago and watched them char some barrels.   II forget how long they took to do so, but I'm pretty sure that it was only a few minutes.  Any longer, and those barrels would've burned up.   It was a great tour and we learned a lot about the process.   We also watched them make the barrels, before charring and there was no heat involved.   The process is very interesting.

Would love to have that opportunity sometimes! Nice pics as well, thanks!

[smokinjoe]

Is it possible that the info you cite is for wine barrels, which are made differently than whiskey barrels?  I found some info that I’ve linked below.

 

http://barrelblog.com/fire-water-and-steam-bent-wine-barrels/

https://www.wineenthusiast.com/culture/spirits/wine-vs-whiskey-barrels-explained/

Edited June 27, 2023 by smokinjoe

[Skinsfan1311]

1 hour ago, Obree said:

Would love to have that opportunity sometimes! Nice pics as well, thanks!

If you ever get the opportunity, you should do it.  We had a blast!

[Richnimrod]

My son and I toured Independent Stave in KY some years ago, and saw the barrel making process in it's entirety.   No heat was used in creating the barrel.    Moisture was used to some extent to 'soften the staves' (and that was minimal).   Charring the interiors with a fierce open flame took only a relatively brief time.   I don't recall exactly; but, it was only a minute or so for #3 char... if that.   A little more for #4 (alligator char, a little less for mild charring (#2).   As far as I know none of the legacy distillers of Bourbon use less than a #3 char for their Bourbon barrels.   The curve of the barrel (the staves) is achieved by hammering the rings (which decrease in size from the middle toward the ends) down in increments working all around the barrel to make the pressure equal.   This process surprised me, in that no other procedure was used to make a water/bourbon-tight barrel.

[Obree]

1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

Is it possible that the info you cite is for wine barrels, which are made differently than whiskey barrels?  I found some info that I’ve linked below.

 

http://barrelblog.com/fire-water-and-steam-bent-wine-barrels/

https://www.wineenthusiast.com/culture/spirits/wine-vs-whiskey-barrels-explained/

The info I have seen is quite generally about barrel making, indeed it may be not specific to whiskey barrels. Though there is some info that mentions for example steam heating for whiskey barrel making. It is quite contradicting info, but those that have seen the process will know best! I have never had that opportunity.

[Obree]

41 minutes ago, Richnimrod said:

My son and I toured Independent Stave in KY some years ago, and saw the barrel making process in it's entirety.   No heat was used in creating the barrel.    Moisture was used to some extent to 'soften the staves' (and that was minimal).   Charring the interiors with a fierce open flame took only a relatively brief time.   I don't recall exactly; but, it was only a minute or so for #3 char... if that.   A little more for #4 (alligator char, a little less for mild charring (#2).   As far as I know none of the legacy distillers of Bourbon use less than a #3 char for their Bourbon barrels.   The curve of the barrel (the staves) is achieved by hammering the rings (which decrease in size from the middle toward the ends) down in increments working all around the barrel to make the pressure equal.   This process surprised me, in that no other procedure was used to make a water/bourbon-tight barrel.

Nice! When you say "moisture was used to some extent",  was this steam? 

[Obree]

1 hour ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

If you ever get the opportunity, you should do it.  We had a blast!

Will try to do so when I have the opportunity to go to the US again! If I do, I certainly want to go to KY!

[Skinsfan1311]

3 hours ago, Richnimrod said:

My son and I toured Independent Stave in KY some years ago, and saw the barrel making process in it's entirety.   No heat was used in creating the barrel.    Moisture was used to some extent to 'soften the staves' (and that was minimal).   Charring the interiors with a fierce open flame took only a relatively brief time.   I don't recall exactly; but, it was only a minute or so for #3 char... if that.   A little more for #4 (alligator char, a little less for mild charring (#2).   As far as I know none of the legacy distillers of Bourbon use less than a #3 char for their Bourbon barrels.   The curve of the barrel (the staves) is achieved by hammering the rings (which decrease in size from the middle toward the ends) down in increments working all around the barrel to make the pressure equal.   This process surprised me, in that no other procedure was used to make a water/bourbon-tight barrel.

The process was pretty amazing to watch. Those Coopers have mad skills.

[flahute]

Brown Forman cooperage.

 

 

[Skinsfan1311]

28 minutes ago, flahute said:

Brown Forman cooperage.

 

 

Wasn't that a cool tour?

The guide told us that each barrel has 33 staves and we thought it was amazing the way the coopers grabbed the right sizes to make each barrel.

They are really talented.

[Obree]

1 hour ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

Wasn't that a cool tour?

The guide told us that each barrel has 33 staves and we thought it was amazing the way the coopers grabbed the right sizes to make each barrel.

They are really talented.

True craftmanship from what I have seen so far! Hope it is not a dying art.

[flahute]

1 hour ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

Wasn't that a cool tour?

The guide told us that each barrel has 33 staves and we thought it was amazing the way the coopers grabbed the right sizes to make each barrel.

They are really talented.

Very cool indeed. I have video of this same guy dropping in all the staves and the last one didn't fit but he nailed it on the 2nd one.

[Richnimrod]

6 hours ago, Obree said:

Nice! When you say "moisture was used to some extent",  was this steam? 

I don't recall for sure; but, I think maybe so.   It's been a few years.    Could also have been a 'soaking' period prior to erecting the barrel.

[Harry in WashDC]

3 hours ago, flahute said:

Very cool indeed. I have video of this same guy dropping in all the staves and the last one didn't fit but he nailed it on the 2nd one.

After I retired, wife signed me up for a woodworking class to get me out of the house.  Learned after a couple months to take a 10 foot long 16 inch diameter maple trunk, plane it, sand it, etc., and turn it into a 4 ft long by 2.5 foot wide by 2 foot high mission style coffee table complete with .25 by .25 inch sticks on the ends.  Made several other tables, etc. (no chairs) until I ran out of friends and neighbors who would take them.  THEN, I discovered bourbon.  Thought I’d make my own barrel for an end table.  Did research on barrel making.

SO!

 

Sold my table saw, two planers, two routers, several hundred dollars’ worth of maple, ash, poplar (used for bracing inside tables, etc.), oak (instead used it for bbq) after concluding there was NO WAY I could (a) pay attention to THAT level of detail, (2) ever finish sufficient staves to make a barrel, (3) make a barrel that didn’t leak.  Plus, I’d run out of consumers.

 

Took the money and loaded up on ASBowman releases.

 

 

 

 

 

[flahute]

1 hour ago, Harry in WashDC said:

After I retired, wife signed me up for a woodworking class to get me out of the house.  Learned after a couple months to take a 10 foot long 16 inch diameter maple trunk, plane it, sand it, etc., and turn it into a 4 ft long by 2.5 foot wide by 2 foot high mission style coffee table complete with .25 by .25 inch sticks on the ends.  Made several other tables, etc. (no chairs) until I ran out of friends and neighbors who would take them.  THEN, I discovered bourbon.  Thought I’d make my own barrel for an end table.  Did research on barrel making.

SO!

 

Sold my table saw, two planers, two routers, several hundred dollars’ worth of maple, ash, poplar (used for bracing inside tables, etc.), oak (instead used it for bbq) after concluding there was NO WAY I could (a) pay attention to THAT level of detail, (2) ever finish sufficient staves to make a barrel, (3) make a barrel that didn’t leak.  Plus, I’d run out of consumers.

 

Took the money and loaded up on ASBowman releases.

 

 

 

 

 

You made the right choice. Barrel making is hard. Notice that the staves have a slight taper at each end. So when they get bent by the bands they meet up perfectly. 

[Obree]

5 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

After I retired, wife signed me up for a woodworking class to get me out of the house.  Learned after a couple months to take a 10 foot long 16 inch diameter maple trunk, plane it, sand it, etc., and turn it into a 4 ft long by 2.5 foot wide by 2 foot high mission style coffee table complete with .25 by .25 inch sticks on the ends.  Made several other tables, etc. (no chairs) until I ran out of friends and neighbors who would take them.  THEN, I discovered bourbon.  Thought I’d make my own barrel for an end table.  Did research on barrel making.

SO!

 

Sold my table saw, two planers, two routers, several hundred dollars’ worth of maple, ash, poplar (used for bracing inside tables, etc.), oak (instead used it for bbq) after concluding there was NO WAY I could (a) pay attention to THAT level of detail, (2) ever finish sufficient staves to make a barrel, (3) make a barrel that didn’t leak.  Plus, I’d run out of consumers.

 

Took the money and loaded up on ASBowman releases.

 

 

 

 

 

money well  spent!

[Richnimrod]

8 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

After I retired, wife signed me up for a woodworking class to get me out of the house.  Learned after a couple months to take a 10 foot long 16 inch diameter maple trunk, plane it, sand it, etc., and turn it into a 4 ft long by 2.5 foot wide by 2 foot high mission style coffee table complete with .25 by .25 inch sticks on the ends.  Made several other tables, etc. (no chairs) until I ran out of friends and neighbors who would take them.  THEN, I discovered bourbon.  Thought I’d make my own barrel for an end table.  Did research on barrel making.

SO!

 

Sold my table saw, two planers, two routers, several hundred dollars’ worth of maple, ash, poplar (used for bracing inside tables, etc.), oak (instead used it for bbq) after concluding there was NO WAY I could (a) pay attention to THAT level of detail, (2) ever finish sufficient staves to make a barrel, (3) make a barrel that didn’t leak.  Plus, I’d run out of consumers.

 

Took the money and loaded up on ASBowman releases.

 

 

HA! Reminds me of my first foray into woodworking in Jr. High.   I managed to take a plank of mahogany about 3-feet by 8-inches by 3/4-inch and turn it into a sizeable pile of sawdust, sanding dust, plane shavings, and rough toothpicks.     I can't remember if anything useful or attractive was also created; but, I doubt it.    I did not receive a good grade.

[Obree]

19 minutes ago, Richnimrod said:

HA! Reminds me of my first foray into woodworking in Jr. High.   I managed to take a plank of mahogany about 3-feet by 8-inches by 3/4-inch and turn it into a sizeable pile of sawdust, sanding dust, plane shavings, and rough toothpicks.     I can't remember if anything useful or attractive was also created; but, I doubt it.    I did not receive a good grade.

[Obree]

Found some additional input, this is from a whiskey barrel cooperage.

 

Seems most cooperages use steam to make the wood pliable, some use fire. From what I understand, if there is no form of treatment the staves would/could break when forced into position. 

 

The wood is hand-placed into a machine that shapes each slat into the correct shape with specific angles so that the wood will fit together around the diameter of the barrel. It’s then placed in a ring called a mise en rose, and metal rings are placed around them to help them keep their shape.

Next comes the heating and charring process. The barrels need to be heated in order to make it pliable enough to bed. The Adirondack Barrel Cooperage is among the few cooperages in the country that uses actual fire in this process, as opposed to steam.

[Obree]

And some more from an article about the Missouri University, seems a lot of the white oak comes from there.

 

The most crucial step in making a barrel is the barrel raising. Every barrel raiser assembles 31 to 33 wide and narrow staves into a temporary steel ring that holds the staves into place. He or she has to make sure the wide and narrow staves are distributed evenly around the circle otherwise the forces that hold the barrel together will also be uneven. In that case, the areas with less pressure are likely to leak.

If one were now to simply bend the barrel into shape, the staves would break. To make the staves pliable, the raised barrel is placed upside down with the wide end to the bottom and either placed over an open fire or hot steam is blown through the staves. A second temporary steel ring is then added giving the barrel its eventual final shape. Two more steel rings are added and the barrel now heads to the heat treatment.

[Obree]

Making a study out of it now, it seems! Some more from an article in Wiley Online Library:

 

Variation in barrel production

Raising and shaping

After the stave wood is kiln dried it is shaped into trapezoids which can be formed into a barrel in a process known as 'raising'. This is carried out through the manual selection of staves to fill a head truss ring around a stand. Staves vary in width and therefore, barrels vary in the number of staves used in their formation (28-32). This variation is important to consider as stave joints constitute the major avenue through which oxygen enters the barrel during whiskey maturation (33). To date, studies of dissolved oxygen ingress into a barrel are not well defined. After the final stave is placed into the head truss, the staves are encircled with a cable that is drawn to the size of the hoop, keeping the wood in place, while it is bent into shape using the application of heat. This can be achieved via fire, water or steam and each method has the potential to alter the extractable compounds in the barrel staves.

Thermal forces are applied to facilitate bending of staves. In some cases, the raised staves are set over an open fire, causing the heat to be funnelled into the confined space of the barrel interior. Tannin is easily degraded by heat (51) and it is likely this process leads to increased conversion to gallic acid in the barrel staves. Bending staves using water entails soaking the entire barrel in water at a temperature of 82°C for 20 minutes. During the soaking period, it is likely that many of the water extractable compounds are removed from the wood penetrated by water. However, to date no quantitative assessment of the amount or rate of water soluble extraction has been performed. Steaming, the third alternative, varies among cooperages, with the temperature ranging from 160 to 180°C, for a period of 20 minutes. Exposure to steam at such temperatures for such a duration can lead to hydrothermolysis of the biopolymers in the staves as this has been shown to occur in other systems (45, 52). In addition, the thermal pressure applied during steaming may produce similar results as exposure to fire, in that tannin may be degraded, producing gallic acid. All three of these thermal applications are capable of altering the profile of volatile compounds present in the staves. There is a clear gap in the literature regarding which reactions take place and the rate at which they occur, in addition to which extractables are lost.