Maker's Mark-eting

[angelshare]

I (Dave) recently viewed a dvd given to me by my dad, who belongs to the MM Ambassadors. In the presentation, a couple of things caught my interest:

1) MM claims to have stringent rules about their cooperage, specifically:

-the wood must season at least 9 months to reduce tannins and break down lignins (sp?) for increased vanilla flavoring;

-MM barrels have fewer staves than the average barrel.

2) After three years, upon approval by a tasting panel, barrels are rotated for further aging in a cooler area.

My question is whether these practices are unique to MM (as is implied in the video), or if other distillers essentially do the same thing. I know that rotation used to be more common, although I have no idea who still does it and how much. I had never heard the statements about cooperage selection before.

[Gillman]

Dave, my understanding is MM is one of the few if not the only distiller still to practise such rotation. In addition to the traditional-sounding techniques you described, apparently MM distills and enters at fairly low proofs, and uses a traditional type of mill for the grain.

So, why does it not taste like Old Fitzgerald and Old Weller in their prime, or even like many say MM tasted in the 70's and earlier?

This is something that puzzles me. Possibly it is being sold younger than in its salad days.

Gary

[bobbyc]

I had never heard the statements about cooperage selection before.

So then I was trying to find out a little more about This stuff. In talking to someone who works at Bluegrass Cooperage, owned by Brown-Forman,We were talking about one of the pieces that I have,and yet to photograph and include on the thread. It turns out to be a Double-End Power Windlass for Tight Barrels. The guy tells me about it's use and how the staves are steamed and drawn up with that machine, I made the offhand comment about the wood seasoning requirements made by Makers being a little silly at that point.Maker's as far as I know are the only ones to include this info and draw from it the inference of a superior product by the practice. My reasoning had to do with the length of time to air dry and season the wood, only to have the moisture reintroduced at the drawing up of the barrel. He went straight into that it may be seasoned so long to reduce those tannins and lignins.Also mentioned was the practice of leaving the wood "In the weather" to produce a leaching out effect.Unknown largely to us, it seems it is something the "Barrel Guys" deal with daily. Funny, the barrel notes are important and yet there are ways to tweak even that.

[boone]

That's true about the cooperage being cured...

I have talked to the owner's of one of the local barrel making companies. He confirmed the seasoned staves tale. I asked him who was the "pickiest"? He said, Jim Beam. He noted that they require each stave to be a specified width...or they just won't take the barrels.

I asked, about the barrel char...He just looked at me with the "deer with a light in their eyes" kinda glare Couldn't cypher if I hit on a sour note or if he didn't want me to know.

He was "politely" upset with me. Ya see, I just walked thur his "entire plant" without as much as a "hey" what are you doing here, kinda response. Being female (at times) will let you do alot of stuff

He was not a "Happy Camper" but he sure was a "Gentleman Unhappy Camper"

Bettye Jo

[barturtle]

I can't imagine any other distiller rotating their barrels, the differences that occur would help to widen the flavor profile and provide for brand profiles.

On a side note: Buffalo Trace, on my last tour, claimed to be the only distillery that still sends out "leak chasers" to seal up leaky barrels...I'm so happy that they save my whiskey for me

As for it not tasting like Weller/Fitz, the barrels could be part of it, or that tiny little still(or stills, since there are now two), or the recipe(I have it at 70C/14W/16B, anybody know the Weller?), or the backset(about a third, the legal min. is 25%),water, youth, filtering (charcoal, before barreling), etc.

I'd like to try the Black Label, but they consider it to be too dear for the U.S.

[TNbourbon]

...or the backset(about a third, the legal min. is 25%)...

There's a legal minimum for backset? I don't find it in the federal regulations (the only reference to mash is minimum grain content for the various whiskeys), which imply by omission that an authentic 'sweet mash' would be legal, though not currently used by anyone.

[barturtle]

...or the backset(about a third, the legal min. is 25%)...

There's a legal minimum for backset? I don't find it in the federal regulations (the only reference to mash is minimum grain content for the various whiskeys), which imply by omission that an authentic 'sweet mash' would be legal, though not currently used by anyone.

Hmm, I can't find it either. I didn't double-check my source: The World Whiskey Guide, Jim Murray 2000 p.260. First published as "The Complete Guide to Whiskey" 1997

Anybody know for sure?

[boone]

Maker's uses HH backset, to start up. This has been their practice for years and years.

I've been told that the term "sour mash" is used because they use backset (worker's slang--->slop<----) spent mash from the previous batch...

I've always heard that whenever they don't use backset at start up...it's called "sweet mash".

Bettye Jo

[ratcheer]

That's precisely my understanding, too, Bettye Jo.

Tim

[angelshare]

That's true about the cooperage being cured...

Just to make sure we're on the same page with you, Betty Jo - it's true that MM is the only distillery that demands curing? Or do others demand it for different lengths of time than MM?

I asked him who was the "pickiest"? He said, Jim Beam. He noted that they require each stave to be a specified width...or they just won't take the barrels.

Interesting...even in the MM dvd, the impression I got was that stave width was more about potential leaking than about quality. Did he comment on whether JB had curing requirements, too?

He was "politely" upset with me. Ya see, I just walked thur his "entire plant" without as much as a "hey" what are you doing here, kinda response.

That's HILARIOUS! Kudos to you for going straight to the source to get your info!

[boone]

Ok

Gotcha

Let me start from the start

I went there (where they make the barrels) to take pictures I went to the little building (on the side) where the office is located. No one was there. I walked over to the plant, I could see folks inside but it was so loud they could not hear me. Nor, could I catch their attention, waving my arms above my head. Shoot, I don't think it would have done any good...Nearly all were Mexican and spoke very little English.

I could see in the back, really big "log trucks"...For some reason, I thought that "planks" were shipped in and they made the staves from there. Nawwwwwwwwww...they bring "entire logs", with logging equipment to pick them up and put them on the conveyor to the saw mill...

Note....I had a camera in my hand and was so taken with all of it that I didn't take the first picture...I was like a kid in a "candy store" All that machinery, and watching how it worked. Well, it was just awsome...They do the entire process from cutting the trees to cooper putting them together...

I walked thru the entire process...saw mill (real thick air, and really loud) shaving, cutting, transfer from one conveyor to another...Men working very hard. It was a job that I would not do nor want any of my kin doin'

Open flames, on a moving conveyor...a very, very, very long line of flames burning the inside of the barrels...Very hot, very, very smokey...I felt as if it were a dungeon. Every step, of the process took lots of man power. The machinery did alot of work but it took many hands to keep the flow going, from one end of the plant to another.

I looked at several guy's as I walked thru and asked for the manager. They gave me that look They didn't have a clue what I said...I ventured all the way thru and finally at the end, I meet the "cooper". He Spoke very good English. I asked him for the manager.

From out of nowhere...he appeared. He asked me who I was and what I wanted. He was not happy with me, at all. He told me so. He was not mean nor hateful. Just stating facts. I apologized and told him that I made every attempt to contact him...My first stop was at the main office...and then I kept venturing further and further.

He understood. It wasn't like I was spying for secrets or trying to do harm there. Just curious. I told him that I wanted to take pictures and post them on Straightbourbon.com. I told him my name and who my folks were etc...etc...He asked me did I take pictures while I was inside?

He did not want me inside. We walked outside right beside the main highway and we talked...I pressed him politely to let me go in and take pictures. He (very gentlemanly) said he would get back with me. I got nowhere and could have kicked myself for being so "awe-struck" with the process that I forgot my intentions to take pictures!

I started to ask him question about the barrels. He is the one who told me that Maker's staves have to be seasoned for nine months. I didn't ask if other's did that process. I assume, they don't or he would have said "Jim Beam and Maker's" season their staves for nine months...He told me that Jim Beam require each stave to be the widest width of all. If a stave is less than that width, they will reject that barrel.

I asked about char, and how long he has done this cooperage. Lots and lots of questions. He didn't know about Straightbourbon.com and told me that he really didn't want his place "put in the limelight" so to speak. I told him it was too late that I had already posted pictures of the outside quite awhile ago. He seemed surprised.

He kindly, shook my hand and told me he would "call me" when he discussed this with his partner...Well, I ain't heard from him since...

Bettye Jo

[cowdery]

"Mark-eting" is the key here.

This is a type of parity claim. The classic parity claim is "nobody has more Chevys than we do." It sounds like they have the most Chevys when all they're saying is "We and the other guys who have just as many Chevys as we do have the most Chevys," a group which may include all, or most, of their competition. It claims parity in a way that sounds like superiority. What Maker's is doing is just a more sophisticated version of the same practice.

Every distiller has specifications for its barrels. Barrels are expensive, their performance is crucial, and since the distiller doesn't make them, the distiller has to monitor their production very carefully. All staves, for example, are either kiln dried or air dried. There are arguments for the superiority of each. So, all staves are dried, but how long and by what method varies precisely because there is no consensus about which formula is best. Each producer, obviously, thinks their formula is best.

The purpose of wider staves, theoretically, is that fewer stave-to-stave interfaces means fewer opportunities for leaks. Again, the "optimum" number is debatable and the benefit, fewer leaks, even if it does occur, is of no value to the consumer.

I could go chapter and verse, but you get the picture.

Bobby wrote:

Maker's as far as I know are the only ones to include this info and draw from it the inference of a superior product by the practice.

Because Brown-Forman owns Bluegrass Cooperage, you get a lot of this type of chatter from them too. They "believe" no one has more "unique" specifications for their barrels than they do. Again, one usually is too polite to say the obvious, which is "so what?" I have also heard a lot of barrel talk from folks at Buffalo Trace. In the industry worldwide, you hear talk about "wood management," which is a broader subject but does include barrel specifications.

Some whiskey drinkers go nuts for this stuff too, the technical details of production. I'm told this is especially true of Germans. Then they have long arguments about the relative merits of different practices, all of which are conjectural at best.

Finally, there is no "legal minimum" for backset since there is no requirement that distilleries use backset at all and, as Bettye Jo mentioned, they can and occasionally do use the sweet mash method, which (by definition) uses no backset. However, twenty-five percent is a good approximation of the normal practice.

[barturtle]

Thanks for the info.

I'm quite familar with the term "wood management", mostly with emphasis towards scotch barrels: first fill, second fill, sherry, port, etc. But, I had never heard of bourbon producers being picky about the number of staves, not that it doesn't make sense to be picky. that had just never occured to me. I had just thought that the cooperages made barrels out of the wood type specified by the buyer and charred to the requested level and off they go. Learn something new every day.

Some whiskey drinkers go nuts for this stuff too, the technical details of production

You can count me among the nuts

[Ken Weber]

Just as an FYI, Buffalo Trace has always specified air dried staves. Furthermore, we do not want the staves until they have dried for a minimum of 9 months, if not longer.

Also, MM rotates their barrels because they essentially have a singular product and need for every barrel to taste as consistent/similar as possible. I believe they tout MM as being made in small batches and therefore do not marry hundreds of barrels together. This places a premium on having consistency from barrel to barrel. Of course I am speaking for MM and do not have the whole story.

Aside from the logistics of moving hundreds of thousands of barrels, we choose not to rotate since we are looking for specific flavor profiles that only come from aging in specific warehouse locations.

Ken

[Sweetmeats]

I'm a Maker's Mark Ambassador. I prefer Weller 12 but I'm sucker for freebies. Anyway, I got the DVD and have an extra that I can send to anyone who is interested. Please PM me if anyone wants it and I will send it to the first person who PM's me. Thanks!

**It's now been spoken for. Sorry if anyone else wanted it**

[boone]

After reading your post, I drove out the road to look at the cooperage again. This cooperage is a young one, ZAK Limited. They are not the size of Bluegrass Cooperage nor Independent Stave Company.

I wanted to see what's outside seasoning. Sure nuff, I think everything gets seasoned. I don't know how long though. There's massive, neatly stacked. rows of staves...Some are new some are very weathered...They came straight from the mill to the stacking yard...There's a incredible amount outside.

Here's a picture that I took about ten minutes ago You can see a "small portion" of their stock. I took the pictures from the road ...Didn't want to get into any trouble

Bettye Jo

[Sweetmeats]

In the DVD, when they go to taste a sample they slam the bung into the barrel. Is this the way it is normally done? So each barrel may have a bung or two floating inside when it is emptied?

[boone]

A look at the cooper's, finishing up the barrels...(I am standing in the road)...

Alot of ya know this area...This cooperage is in the same building as the "Seagram's" Distillery (burned in the early 70's) located, in Athertonville, Ky....Tale has it that young Abe Lincoln walked to the distillery (Boone Brother's back then ) "quite often" to bring his father (who worked there) lunch...Young Abe worked there for a short while.

The Lincoln's Boyhood Home (now a State Park) is just a skip down the road from this cooperage

Bettye Jo

[barturtle]

WOW! That must take some effort. I've seen the effort that it takes to pull one out-Beam has this big, cool power corkscrew thing. And the few times I've done barrel tastings they actually hit the barrel on both sides of the bung with a mallet until it finally pops out. I can't imagine the force it requires to push a tapered bung through the hole in the barrel.

[Sweetmeats]

Of course...it could be staged. Shock...horror!

Or maybe I'm confused on what a bung is. Little round hole with a stopper in it?

[doubleblank]

My guess is you need to look at the DVD very carefully. They are probably hitting the barrel very hard.....right next to the bung. This makes them pop out so a thief can be inserted into the hole.

Randy

[cowdery]

"Bung" is actually the term for the plug. "Bung hole" is the term for the hole in the barrel into which the bung is inserted.

I've never seen nor heard of popping a bung into a barrel, which would be a hard thing to do and not a particularly good thing to do. Hitting the barrel to pop the bung out is kind of a parlor trick. The normal way of removing one is by using a device similar to a cork screw.

[cowdery]

The subject of barrel rotation vis a vis Maker's Mark is an interesting one. Maker's has always said that it still rotates, while we have received "field reports" from employees there, saying they don't. I think the truth in somewhere in the middle. What Ken says is true, about why they need to rotate, and what Maker's says is true, which is that they don't rotate routinely and certainly don't move every barrel, but they rotate stock when necessary to achieve the consistency they strive for. Because of the trouble and expense, I'm sure they rotate reluctantly and infrequently, but they probably do rotate some stock from time to time.

[Sweetmeats]

Thanks guys. My wife was watching it with me and commented, "They just knock that thing in there?" So, maybe our eyes are mistaken but I'll check again later to be sure.

[Gillman]

By the way, I've never accepted the assertion that blending non-rotated barrels will equal the palate of barrels routinely rotated. You will get a unique and possibly very good palate from batching hundreds of "differentially" aged barrels. It can't be the same though as the combination of barrels consistently rotated. Since flavor of each of the latter will be more uniform than for the differential barrels, a more uniform-tasting palate will result, no "evening out" can achieve the same thing. The logic of not rotating is apparent if as Ken Weber said, one wants to sell different-tasting bourbons (many different brands, as Buffalo Trace does). But apart from that, I think the story about big differential batches achieving the same result as methodical rotation is another boosterism story, therefore to be taken with a grain of salt. I believe rotation was abandoned by most distilleries for the reason Ken said or in some cases just to save money. It does make sense though that a distillery which famously makes one product will want to be very careful with its palate and consistent rotation can only help that.

Gary