lower cost, better quality

[kitzg]

Since No one has posted any real tasting notes or comments since the middle of July...here goes. While this forum has perhaps exhausted the subject of 'what's your favorite?' it seems like it has been awhile since anyone discussed lower cost bourbon. Certainly there have been new folks join since then.

In the old days I'd my 'well' was something like Old Crow (which shall never more touch my lips ... well, maybe if ther is a party and thats what they have) and my 'shelf bourbon' was Jim Beam White lavel but none of those make it to my cabinet now. (I have to say cabinet because the space for my future bar is still otherwise occupied in my living quarters.

While I have a number of fine products that cost $30 and up per 750ml bottle, when I don't want to drink up that supply there are certain bourbons I reach for. My overall favorite (I'd say 'well bourbon' but it is far too good for that) is a product most of you can't get called Old Commonwealth. It is from VanWinkle and Julian himself tipped me to the fact that it is always in my local store. My number two but slightly more (yet under $20) would be Knob Creek.

Another choice that I frequently go back to in bars and find priced less than the Small Batch is Old Grand Dad BIB (I'll even drink the 86 proof). For some reason I don't keep Jim Beam Black label around (so maybe it costs a bit more locally yet it is only about $19 at alcoholreviews.com) but it is fine bourbon as well for the price.

Those of you who don't know me won't know that I just don't like Makers Mark so that is not included.

Okay, now I've started it. Maybe some of the newer members would like to share.

I can say that for awhile I found myself always trying the higher end product and almost forgot about the decent product at reasonable prices.

Greg

[tdelling]

Two years ago, I was given a 1.75L plastic bottle of Ten High.

It was a leftover from Kentucky Derby party. I still have it.

It's okay. Nothing special.

Sometimes I buy the little glass hip-pocket sized bottles of

Evan Williams black label, in order to fill them with something else.

I drink the EW. It's okay. Nothing special.

My "low cost, high quality" bourbon: Wild Turkey Rare Breed.

A steal at $22. Much cheaper than, say, the Laphroaig 15 year

old single malt scotch, which weighs in at around $75, and is

worth every penny in my book.

(Low price is a relative thing...)

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Tim may the Saints preserve us all! I wouldn't pay 7 & 1/2 cents a gallon for the very best spayside much less the lowley laphroaig.

Really now -- toss that [censored] down the drain and chase with liquid plumber! Ten High is a far better whiskey at $7 a bottle than anything from scotland at $400 a bottle.

Now repeat after me -- scotch sucks; scotch sucks; scotch sucks; scotch sucks!

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[rwilps]

Linn,

I'll disagree with you here and now about ALL Scotch sucking. And that's the first time I've ever heard Laphroiag described as "lowly". The problem with Scotch, IMHO, is that it's weak, despite the proof, because the miserly souls there are using used barrels. It seems to me that even the fine old Islay distillers have taken recently to trying to intensify flavor by going to cask strength (good) and using port and sherry barrels for whisky finishing (bad, achhhh, ptui!) - the sherry or port notes are so cloying, and they collide in a horrifying way with the defiantly maritime iodiney twang of the best Islay malts. Thank God Talisker has not tried that. Now what might be a serious dram would be an Islay malt of good character at cask strength out of new charred oak barrels. Aberlour's A'bunadh is an excellent example of something that's half right - kind of like mixing Rare Breed with bad sweet vermouth.

Ralph Wilps

[msap]

Greg,

I am fairly new to this forum and have spent the past few months reading a lot of posts and buying a lot of different Bourbons in all price ranges. The prices in my area are a bit higher than those you refered to.

Some of my favorite $20-30 bourbons are:

Elijah Craig 12 yr. $17 (Under $20 but deserves to be in this group)

Evan Williams Single Barrel 1990 and 1991 (quite different but both good) $22

Elmer T. Lee $22

Knob Creek $22

Old Grand Dad BIB

The Knob Creek tends to be my everyday bourbon. I usually have at least 1 unopened backup bottle. It's also the first better than average bourbon I ever tried. Gone are the days of Jim Beam (white) and Makers Mark (yuck). I do however currently have backup bottles of everything I've listed.

Some of the $20-$30 bourbons that I have not liked as much are:

Russels Reserve $20

Eagle Rare 10 year $20

Makers Mark

I enjoy all other Wild Turkey products but for the money I'd rather have Knob Creek or andy of the other above ones than Russels Reserve. The Eagle Rare is something that I kep trying thinking that I might eventually like it but it's not happening

I'm reserving judgement on Buffalo Trace. I have a few bottles of it and like it because it is so different that anything else I've tried but I'm not sure how much I like it beyond the novelty of a different taste. I'd of listed Rare breed as one I liked but unfortunately it's just over $30 round here.

High Desert Whiskey Fan

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Sorry fellas! I can never resist yanking on a scotch drinkers chain. I know it's mean, but THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT!

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[Ken Weber]

Being a thin skinned brand manager, I am intrigued by your comment regarding the taste of Buffalo Trace. When we introduced Buffalo Trace, our goal was to offer the finest bourbon we had available. With a few awards in our back pocket, we searched for a taste profile that we felt was outstanding and somewhat different from the masses. Uniqueness was not the driving factor, but rather an attempt to provide the best we were capable of.

Everyone will not like every whiskey and I respect this difference of opinion. My goal is to hear consumer feedback and give it careful consideration. That is why I would like to hear more about your observations.

Ken

[tdelling]

Feel free to yank my chain any day. I'm a scotch fan and proud of it!

I'll yank you back:

The Purfect Bourbon Tasting by Linn

"Rye Dynamite 8WO Bourbon" (TNT Distillers)

1) Pop the cork. A large well-muscled arm with a honkin' I LUV MOM tattoo

comes out with a big ol' wooden mallet an' beats you over the head.

Repeatedly. As you pick yourself up off the ground, you see your

reflection in the chrome fender of your motorcycle. The word RYE

has been imprinted on your forehead.

2) The pour: You freeze cold in your boots. You recognize that deep

rumble, that heavy breathing sound, that snort, that smell. You're

about to be a nice little snack for the biggest bear in Hazzard County.

You slowly turn your head. There's no bear to be seen, but there's

a bottle in your hand, and it's shakin' like a California lemonade stand

during an earthquake party.

3) The nose: Hooooooooo dooogie! You breathe in a big whiff, and

when you breathe it out, rye flames rocket out of your nostrils. Your

belt buckle glows red hot, and pat your chest to put the fire out.

4) At this point, you realize that ice is a neccessity. The ice goes in

like hot rivets. Steam rises high, and billows so bad you worry that

the neighbors'll call the fire department.

5) The sip: You're immediately kicked in the gluteous maximus. Repeatedly.

The big boot must be a size 12. Yowza! No, a size 16. Yowza! No,

a size 25! You feel a cool breeze blowin' in from the south and realize

that your buttocks are exposed for all to see. That boot wore its way

through thee pairs of pants and just did away with your finest pair

of double-starched and ironed tighty-whities!

6) The palate/mouthfeel: Sweet dog on a fence! Corn never tasted this

sweet! Your mouth waters like a hot radiator that just lost its lid! Sell

your NutraSweet stock before the word gets out.

7) Finish: When I was 9 years old, I drunk vanilla extract on a bet. When I

was 11 years old, I chewed a vanilla bean 'cuz I wasn't old enough for

tobacco. If there's one person that knows how intense vanilla can be,

that's me. The finish had me on the way to Vanilla Heaven. I was

25 feet in the air by the time that finish started to fade, and I'll tell you

now, I'm lucky a grabbed a tree branch when I opened my eyes, or

else I'd uv broke my legs when I hit the ground.

8) Overall: This is the purfect bourbon. It beats you up and rubs salt in

your eyes. It's gonna kick your butt through THREE PAIRS OF PANTS

and leave your sweet cheeks blowin' in the wind. If you ever see a

case of this bourbon, then take out another mortgage on your doghouse,

and call the hospital to warn 'em you'll be on your way. Highly

Reccomended.

Tim

[kitzg]

I did want to add (and forgot yesterday) that Ken has absolutely convinced me to buy Benchmark. I picked up a piece of old Benchmark signage a year ago and wanted a bottle just to go with it. I'd always hesitated because I knew for awhile it had a bad reputation. I'm pleased that Ken has convinced me that I should try some. I don't buy anything in August (no teaching, no income) but will pick up a bottle this fall. As for Buffalo Trace, I've weighed in on that one before and it's just not for me.

Greg

[kitzg]

Those that you mention as over $20 are over $20 here too so not in my set of 'low cost." I don't have any Elijah Craig so willl have to look at my notes about what I thought of it. Since I can get Old Commonwealth it along with Knob Creek would be my regulars.

Drank a little Old Forrester last night since the bottle was so full. I usually don't like it but with nothing else before or after it I found it drinkable.

[rwilps]

My God! Linn is really Tim Delling with a multiple personality disorder! He has a Scotch identity and a bourbon identity...

Ralph Wilps

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Thanks for the flowers Tim!

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[msap]

Ken,

I do like Buffalo Trace and I probably over stated it a bit that The novelty of the taste is most of the reason why. Over the past four months I've purchased 25-30 different Bourbons and tried all but one. I have definitely decided on some that I don't like and some that I love. Buffalo Trace is one that I like, I'm just not certain where to rank it. I am currently drinking some and what stands out to me is a kind of grassy / earthy taste that then kind of warms up and takes on a vanilla and slightly sweet addition. I really don't know how to describe what I taste very well but that's where I'll start. I will say that the more i keep going back and trying it the more i like it. I own a few bottles of it and I have been unwilling to part with any to my fellow local bourbon friends since I cannot get it in this part of the country( I will pour it for them just won't part with a whole bottle). All of these things said I guess i could safely say it's growing on me. The taste is however quite different than most any I've tried and I for one cosider that a very good thing. It's nice to try something different enough that it really stands out and gives you something new to consider.

Mike

High Desert Whiskey Fan

[jbutler]

Greg,

I spent the better portion of last week out in the woods with my son. I took my sole bottle of OGD BIB with me and consumed about half. That's some extremely competent bourbon, particularly when one considers it's price.

Me and my brother used to drink it regularly some years back, but I havent seen it here in northern CA in several years. The bottle I have I picked up at a liquor store in Annapolis MD. Too damn far to drive for me, particularly after I've been drinking!

Cheers,

Jim Butler

Straightbourbon.com

[vasshopper]

Tim

That was right on ! couldn't be better and almost pissed in my pants laughing so hard!!!

Life is good --Den

[ratcheer]

Knob Creek for $20? Man, that would be heaven! It is my top favorite and, here in Alabama, it is $32 for 750 ml.

While I am at it, my second favorite is Woodford Reserve (both are excellent, but I prefer the deeper, darker flavors of the Knob Creek) and third (so far) is Wild Turkey 101. In fourth, I have Elijah Craig 12-YO.

But, there are lots of bourbons I haven't gotten to, yet. Tops on my wish list are Blanton, Baker's, and Booker's.

Cheers, Tim

[cowdery]

Add to your wish list the Evan Williams Single Barrel Vintage. It keeps good company with the products you already have mentioned.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://cowdery.home.netcom.com>--Chuck Cowdery</A>

[kitzg]

Tim, Your choices are good ones. The nice thing about Booker's is the planned inconsistency -- always good but always slightly different. Yet, those bourbons are more expensive than the $20. I was saddened that Knob Creek 750 ml here went up from $19.95 to $21.95 but still a bargain compared to your prices.

If you can get any VanWinkle product I highly recommend them all.

Greg

[ratcheer]

Thank you. I will try to find that, but I live in an ABC store state and sometimes certain items just can't be found. And I do not believe I have seen that one, here.

But I will certainly keep an eye out for it.

PS - I have enjoyed several of your articles very much. I have seen them in several locations, mostly via links at about.com, but in other places, too. Keep up the good work!

[ratcheer]

Thanks. Yes, several people have steered me to the van Winkle bourbons and some of them are available in my area, but they are quite expensive. Since the Blanton is at the top of my list and it is $45, here, it may be a while before I can get to the van Winkle.

Also, I am confused as to the relationship between van Winkle and the old Weller distillery. I believe that Julian van Winkle was the master distiller at the defunct Stitzel-Weller distillery, but it seems that the current Weller and van Winkle brands come from different companies. I don't suppose this should be surprising, but it is.

[kitzg]

You are on the right track. Pappy VanWinkle, Julian's father, was the 'head man' at Stitzel-Weller. To make a very long story short the distillery was closed, the brands sold, and Julian now owns his own small distillery. To make the story long and memorable buy a really interesting book, "But Always Fine Bourbon," by Julian's sister, Sally VanWinkle Campbell (available at amazon.com).

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Sorry Greg, but Pappy is Julian's Grandfather.

Mike Veach

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by bourbonv on Sun Sep 9 07:30:01 2001 (server time).</FONT></P>

[cowdery]

AND Julian operates a rackhouse and a bottling line, but not a distillery. He ages, bottles and sells bourbon that he acquires from distillers. Most of what he sells is bourbon made at Stitzel-Weller using his family's recipe.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://cowdery.home.netcom.com>--Chuck Cowdery</A>

[kitzg]

I stand corrected and did know both points (See postings from Mike and Chuck) -- haste leads to distribution of misinformation. I believe Julian calls his operation "distillery" on his label (though I must admit I should look) and thus used the term. I'm not sure why I stated "father" instead of "grandfather. "

Lest I mislead the S-W operation was sold first and then eventually closed.

Greg

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Now I'm confused! I thought that J. van Winkle III opperated the Old Commonwealth Distillery and held a DSP number even though he has never distilled any whiskey there, or anywhere to my limited knowledge. Jullian is much like Even Kulsveen's Willit's non-distilling distillery. A licensed distillery according to the BATF yet they distill nothing. A comical confusion of factual coincidence.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.