BOTM, 8/06: A.H. Hirsch 16yo

[jeff]

Admittedly getting a bit of a late start this month, I thought it would be a good idea to discuss A.H. Hirsch 16yo while there is still some to be found out in the market. A product of the Michter's distillery in Pennsylvania and aged in Kentucky, Hirsch bourbon is mingling of the historic Pennsylvania distilling tradition with the tender loving care KY gives all it's bourbon. One of the last truely unique products on the market, A.H. Hirsch deserves a spot in the choosiest of bunkers. Gold wax, blue wax, gold foil or whatever version of Hirsch you have open, let's hear what you think of this nearly extinct relic.

:893drillsergeant-thSound off:893drillsergeant-th

[bluesbassdad]

Jeff,

We needed a bit of a respite after all the excitement generated by Woodford Reserve last month. :slappin:

I noticed in the WBAYDN thread that someone just finished off a bottle of the blue wax version of Hirsch (which I've never even seen, much less tasted). Let's hope he made notes. :grin:

I haven't touched my remaining fraction of a bottle of the gold wax for at least two years. Thanks for giving me an excuse to do so.

While I'm at it, I'll inventory my stash of sale-priced gold foil. Ever since I discovered that it was less to my liking than the gold wax version, I've intended to work down to a single bottle before I return the gold wax version to my informal rotation. My intent, somewhere down the road, is to finish my lone bottle of 20 y/o and the 16 y/o gold wax in the same sitting, this ending my experience of the Hirsch bottlings on the highest possible note.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[Gillman]

A excellent example of well-aged, rye-oriented straight whiskey. The proprietary Michter's-brand mashbill (50% corn, 38% rye, remainder barley malt) produced an adroit amalgam of bourbon and rye whiskey courtesy Everett Beam, Bettye Jo Boone's uncle who worked at Michters for many years. In its original form (6 years old), it was a milder version of, say, the modern Pikesville or Wild Turkey ryes.

In its Hirsch guise maturity (never anticipated by the makers in 1974 but who cares), it becomes something quite different yet related. I'd say the link is a certain maple spearmint quality and maybe something earthy from the cool Pennsylvania forests.

The best dram of '74 Michters is, in my humble opinion, a mingling of Hirsch 16 and the original Michter's Original Sour Mash - but for that you have to attend Gazebo.

Gary

[hollywood]

Unfortunately, Hirsch like many other fine pours, can not be obtained in the Kansas City area (Midwest?)....if they are obtainable, I haven't been able to find them since moving here. I guess I'll wait to next month again and hope I'll have a chance to participate! (lol) Happy drinks to those who can!! H'wood

[Nebraska]

Hollywood, we have some here in Omaha and I may be able to locate some in KC for you. I'll check my resources and get back.

[Hedmans Brorsa]

It´s been excruciatingly hot even here in northern Scandinavia, which has reduced my thirst for whiskey to almost nil, I´m afraid. Happily I´m still on holiday, as my ability to think or act is seriously hampered.

Anyway, I´ve had two bottles of Hirsch, so far. Both have been the gold foil. They´re pretty much the same. Noted differences were that the nose of the second bottle came across as somewhat muted in comparison with the first. I love it, a dry earthy, barrel-ish scent which promises good things to come.

The second bottle compensated for the slightly diminished nose by sporting a longer and more satisfactory finish than the first who was too short and bitter for my taste.

In all, I get lots of honey, some black pepper and coffe from the palate. It´s a very good whiskey for it´s age. Infinitely better than most bourbons I´ve had around this age mark (ORVW 15yo excepted).

One thing that puzzles me is all the noted difference betwenn gold/blue seal/foil. Isn´t this all and the same whiskey kept in a steel container?

[aarkwilde]

What was the order they were bottled in?

Curiousity. I saw two bottles of the gold wax and need to get back to the store to see if they're still there.

[barturtle]

Blue, Gold, Foil-oldest to newest

[FlashPuppy]

Well, I guess this is the final incentive to go pick up that bottle of gold foil which I have been eyeing. What was/is the going price for a bottle of this?

[cowdery]

I just bought a bottle of the gold foil at Binny's for $59.99. They had 8 more on the shelf and I thought about it, I really did.

I love this stuff. Gary's "maple spearmint quality" is as good a description as any of what makes it so special. Nothing being made today tastes quite like it, that's for sure.

Jeff, I have a question about your statement about this whiskey aging in Kentucky. It is my understanding that it mainly was decanted in Kentucky and held in stainless until bottling.

Is all of the Hirsch 1974 distillation? How do we know this?

[barturtle]

IIRC there is a short piece in Regan's Bourbon and other fine American Whiskies that tells the tale of the bottling, also in one of Murray's books. However, I have both the 20yo and the 16yo Gold wax and both clearly state 1974 as the date of distillation, the 20yo even says it was spring of '74. The 16yo says the barrels were brought to KY for final aging and bottling in 1989, so it would seem the 20yo spent 5 years there and the 16yo a yer or less before being put in stainless. Julian has confirmed (somewhere on this board) putting the Hirsch in stainless, as he currently has done with his rye.

[Mad Jester]

I have been slowly working through a couple of "foil" bottles with my brother in law. There is a hint of something sharp in the beginning that I don't care for, but it disappears as the ice just begins to melt. It seems a more subtle bourbon, and it looses all complexity if I let it get too watered down, but up to that point it is a great experience.

As a side note, after having a few too many, my brother in law decided to mix some with Coke. Later I was persuaded to try the same. Despite the blasphemy I really enjoyed it that way also.

From APP:

A.H. Hirsch Reserve 16

The now-defunct Michter’s distillery in Schaefferstown, Pa., was producing whiskey before Kentucky was even settled. Although the distillery closed its doors in 1988, the 16-year bottling is its legacy and the unobtainable 20-year is the stuff legends are made of. An alluring oaky nose and a rich toffee and vanilla taste make this a truly captivating spirit. Price: $70

Rating: 9.4

[jburlowski]

A classic bourbon. MHO, more complex and interesting than the 20 y.o. variant. I agree with the comments on the sweet, minty notes. Always a pleasure to drink and share.

It is still widely available (although expensive) here in Northern Kentucky.

[cowdery]

I can't help but wonder why all of the whiskey rescued for the Hirsch bottlings was a 1974 distillation which, now that I've looked (while pouring myself a healthy dram), is on the label.

Also on the label is the statement that it was made "in small copper pot stills," which we are virtually certain is not true. Research has shown that Michter's claims for "pot still" distillation come from the fact that their second distillation took place in a pot still, as does everyone elses.

It couldn't have been made in the small pot still distillery now in the possession of the David Beam family in Bardstown, if it was distilled in 1974, because that wasn't erected until 1976.

Also, what are some of the other prices people are seeing/paying for gold foil 16 at retail. Is the $60 at Binny's a great deal, or about average?

[TNbourbon]

...Also, what are some of the other prices people are seeing/paying for gold foil 16 at retail. Is the $60 at Binny's a great deal, or about average?

$60 would be an excellent price here now. I used to see it at that price, but it has been in the $75 and up range for a year or more now -- that's $80+ after sales tax.

While I don't have a Hirsch 16 open currently, this serves as a reminder that this might be a good time to snag a couple more before it's gone forever.

Also, within the past week, I ran across this Michter's 101 proof bottling for a reasonable price:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2927&stc=1&d=1155180901

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2926&stc=1&d=1155180797

It's hard to tell how much is actually left, but there's a good bit of sloshing when shaken, so I believe we'll have enough to taste-test in a research setting:grin: . It's my understanding this IS whiskey that came from the Bicentennial pot still David Beam owns. Or was it from the original Bomberger pot still, as Randy B.'s original post in this thread suggests?:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3544&highlight=Michter%27s+pot+still

If the latter instance, maybe we won't be tasting it in Bardstown...:skep:

[luv2hunt]

The $60 at Binny's is a great deal. It's $79-89 here in Indy!

Dawn

[smokinjoe]

After a lull in seeing this on the shelves, I do seem to see alot of it lately. I mean alot. Don't have an idea why. I think $60/bottle sounds really good to me. Most I have seen is in the $80 range. I'll be in Chicago at the end of the month. Guess Where I'm going?

[Sijan]

I've never seen any version but the gold foil. Have tasted from three gold foil bottles. Liked two, disliked the third. Unfortunately, the third is the only one I own.

[Gillman]

The stills Randy is referring to are the 1976 stills. There were two made, for double distillation, and as for all such systems, one is larger than the other. In Scots terminology, the larger is the wash still and the smaller, the spirit still. (The latter is smaller because the wash/mash is reduced in volume by the first distillation). The single barrel programme they had post-dated installation of those stills in 1976.

As for small copper stills in 1974, this is something of a puzzle. I can only assume what is meant is the doubler still which must have been made of copper.

On another whiskey site, someone with considerable knowledge has theorised that the whiskey sold as Michter's might, or some of it, have been made off-site by the company that owned Pennco/Michters, possibly in Philadelphia. Continental Distilling (I believe was the name of the owner then, or of a company connected somehow to Pennco) owned a plant in Philadelphia. Be that as it may, there can be no doubt distilling went on in Schaefferstown, PA, the brochures Randy referred to make that clear. There is in those documents considerable description of the process, e.g., rye and corn were used (evidently in the proportions of 50% corn, 38% rye, the rest barley malt, and some bourbon was doubtless made too), distillation came out at under 160 proof (although in the 150's, relatively high), new charred barrel aging was used, etc. This is why Michter's sour mash "pot still" was a straight whiskey or a straight type of whiskey anyway.

The barrels rescued by the Hues for some reason were all 1974 distillation, maybe that was all that was left to purchase in bulk.

My feeling is this was bourbon made at Schaefferstown which was essentially the same as the proprietary whiskey sold as Michter's in the 1960's and 70's in decanters and the rare bottles that clearly were issued then.

Later, whiskey made in the Vendome 1976 still also was used, I infer, to fill some of the packages sold at the "jug shop". (Some might have been filled with whiskey made in the column still and doubler equipment which operated before 1976 and possibly after for a time).

As often discussed here, the Pennco/Michter's story is a fascinating one with many unanswered questions. Many people must be living who know the full story (e.g.,the person who was the last distiller at Michter's).

Gary

[jeff]

After a lull in seeing this on the shelves, I do seem to see alot of it lately. I mean alot. Don't have an idea why. I think $60/bottle sounds really good to me. Most I have seen is in the $80 range. I'll be in Chicago at the end of the month. Guess Where I'm going?

While at Buffalo Trace back during the Sampler, I couldn't help but notice a few rolls of Hirsch 16yo labels sitting on the desk in the Weller bottling house. No one was there at the time to ask, but maybe there was an additional bottling done during that period?

[Gillman]

Another idea occurs to me about the reason for the 1974 distillation date of all the Hirsch Michter's.

Pennco was unquestionably a bulk whiskey producer. For example, it apparently produced rye whiskey for the Overholt label, and other rye labels, at various times.

No doubt it also made straight whiskey sold in bulk for blending - American whiskey (the blended product) was a big seller in the era in question (it still is in some parts of the country, e.g., I saw a lot of Kessler's on the shelves in Santa Rosa recently).

Maybe someone had contracted in or about 1974 to buy 1974 distillate from Pennco for a private brand. If this is so, this would explain why that year's production was in those barrels and nothing else - that is what they bought. Also, since the Hirsch labels identify the contents as bourbon, the purchaser (in this hypothesis) would have stipulated for bourbon so the mash used would have been a bourbon mash. Bearing in mind how close the regular Michter's-label whiskey was to a bourbon mash, that would not have been hard to do (throw a little extra corn in there).

For some reason unless the original buyer wanted old whiskey (which is possible), it or he did not take delivery until 1989 or by then had sold the whiskey to the people who did ultimately take delivery. The consignee removed the whiskey to Kentucky later to be tanked (for the 16 year old) or further matured in wood until it was 20 years old and bottled. The 20 year old was never tanked. Either way, it was stored in Pennsylvania, clearly, for the first 15 years, but then was aged as Jeff said in Kentucky.

Gary

[jeff]

Thanks Gary. In my rush to get a new BOTM up for August, I went mostly from memory and the label when making that post. I was under the impression that all Hirsch was aged for some time in KY, but apparently only the 20yo spent any significant time here in wood.

[Gillman]

Jeff, thanks, but actually was I agreeing with you because first, 1989 is 15 years after distillation and some barrels were tanked at 16 years old (which as we know can be a minimum). So the whiskey spent at least a year in wood outside Pennsylvania and maybe longer before being tanked. That is aging and a year can make a big difference as we know from other experience.

Second, I consider being held in a stainless tank a form of aging. Yes, the intention is to retard aging, but some changes apparently occur, as many seemed to notice amongst the iterations of Hirsch 16 (blue wax, gold wax, etc.).

In fact therefore in my view it is true to say all the whiskey was aged in both Pennsylvania and Kentucky.

[Hedmans Brorsa]

Maybe someone had contracted in or about 1974 to buy 1974 distillate from Pennco for a private brand. y, for the first 15 years, but then was aged as Jeff said in Kentucky.Gary

According to Murray´s bourbon book, all the 1974 stocks were bought by a German called Adolph Hirsch (who he?).

Well, that´s what it sez, anyway.

[bluesbassdad]

There have been threads about this bourbon in the past, such as this one, where the comparison between the second and third bottlings was the foucus.

Of course, Gillman saw an opportunity to do some vatting. :grin: Gary, because of its scarcity (I have about one-third of a bottle left), I shan't be adding any of the 20 y/o to the 16 y/o in hopes of improving it. However, if my upcoming Ten High/EC18 effort is satisfactory, I might try a dash of the EC18 in the Hirsch 16 y/o. What do you think? Are the styles too far apart?

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield