BOTM, 8/06: A.H. Hirsch 16yo

[bluesbassdad]

Last night I opened a bottle of the Hirsch 16 y/o gold foil. I gave myself a generous pour, which was barely half finisihed when I retired a few hours later. In contrast, the previous evening a similar-size pour of Eagle Rare Single Barrel had to be replenished. I still plan to compare all three versions of Hirsch I have on hand, but I'm not really looking forward to it.

I wonder whether I'll have anything to add to what I said in this post.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[bluesbassdad]

Here's a post from the days before I acquired the gold foil bottling. Those were the days, for sure.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[cowdery]

This is entirely from memory, but when I first heard about the Hirsch bottlings (by the way, the line was named Hirsch as a tribute. Hirsch, the person, had nothing to do with it.) the story was that the state of Pennsylvania has seized the property for back taxes and was either actively trashing the whiskey or intending to. The Huels got wind of this and made a deal to purchase it. If this is true, you would think that there would be a mix of distillation dates, not all 1974. This prompts speculation such as Gary's, that there is some specific reason -- an unclaimed contract, for example -- to account for the fact that only 1974 product was still in the warehouses when the state seized them.

One thing that has to be remembered is that, at the time, there was a glut of old whiskey in the industry and not much interest in it. Though it sure seems to have paid off, for them and certainly for us, the Huels took a huge risk.

[contrarian]

Dave, I had the opportunity to pick up a bottle (or three) of gold foil 16 recently and your linked comments made it much easier to keep that $88 pocketed.

I'll have a regret or two this month (while it's the BOTM) that I never tried this whiskey, but I'll wash them down with this month's buys for little more than a bottle of Hirsch: VRO Heaven Hill 86, Buffalo Trace, and Aberlour a'bunadh. I feel better already.

Jeff

[bluesbassdad]

Jeff,

There's irony in that. I have three bottles I'd just as soon get rid of. There's probably not much demand among people who give my views any credence.

My best shot at swapping them might arise from someone who is tired of my bitching about how disappointed I am.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[Gillman]

Well, part of it may be the gold foil in the opinion of some doesn't reach the heights of the earlier bottlings although this is a question of degree.

Then too as discussed in other contexts, Dave is not (I believe) a big straight rye fan and Hirsch 16 in any guise is practically a straight rye, something that may explain his reserve towards this whiskey.

Dave, regarding EC 18 and Hirsch 16, I wouldn't go there, I see no complementarity.

Hirsch 16 needs something similar to leaven it, but younger. Original Michter's is ideal. Failing that, use any minty, not-too-old bourbon or rye whiskey in a proportion of, say, 3:1 or 2:1. This is just a suggestion. I appreciate a big, forward whiskey like gold foil Hirsch but feel too it shows to good advantage in a blend of old and new.

Gary

[mobourbon]

My wife just gave me a bottle od Hirsch 16 y/o. Gold foil. It's a closeout in PA. $69.99! Great taste! It tingles in the mouth for a few seconds. It has that old time bourbon taste.

[Hedmans Brorsa]

Who was Adolph Hirsch, then?

Using the search function, I found a post from 2005 where Gary identifies him as a Schenley executive.

In a primitive Google search I found some info about a namesake owning a liquor store in Colorado with "huge stocks". Could this be one and the same person?

[Gillman]

In my reading about the liquor industry and whiskey production over the years, this name has come up, in fact pre-dating World War II. I think I read about the Schenley connection in Sam Cecil's book but it may be somewhere else. I believe, from seeing various references to the name over the years, that a series of people probably from the same family were and probably still are involved in different aspects of the liquor industry. This often happens, such as e.g., the Beams, Samuels, Van Winkles, etc..

Gary

[Gillman]

I can't resist one more go at Dave's request for a whiskey to vat with Hirsch 16. Earlier I suggested a younger, minty whisky (say, Evan Williams black label or one of the EWSBs). Earlier bottlings of Buffalo Trace might also work, which I found not too aged-tasting and minty. Such vattings though would preserve the overall profile of Hirsch/Michters and maybe would be found wanting if the Hirsch 16 on its own is not admired.

Therefore, I would consider vatting it with a low-rye or wheat-recipe bourbon of medium age. This will "absorb" or "dilute" some of the rye and wood of the Hirsch 16There are many candidates, from any of the Weller line to Maker's Mark to Old Charter. I would stick with 3:1 for such an approach (Weller, etc. to Hirsch). It can be adjusted depending on the type of whiskey used for the vatting and personal preference.

Weller 12 and Hirsch 16 might be perfect, or for a younger-tasting blend, Maker's and Hirsch 16.

Gary

[bluesbassdad]

Gary,

My tastes may be too varied for me to qualify as a "big straight rye fan." However, I do enjoy VWFRR 13 y/o and my lonesome, almost empty bottle of the VW Old Time Rye 12 y/o. I've also enjoyed WT rye, but not the Old Overholt or Jim Beam bottlings. In short there's little to suggest that the rye in the Hirsch is the source of my displeasure.

Furthermore, I consider the gold wax version of the Hirsch to be one of my top five favorite whiskies. It's just the gold foil version that I don't enjoy. There can be no doubt that the versions contain the same proportion of rye.

I accidentally performed an experiment over the past two days that may contain a clue -- or maybe not. Last night I poured a liberal drink of the gold wax version. Unfortunately, I was rather tired, and I dozed off in front of the TV. When I awoke during an infomercial, I barely recalled my half-finished drink. I covered the glass and staggered off to bed.

Moments ago I decided to finish it off. I find that it has lost much of its depth and richness on the palate and finish, leaving behind an overly dry, almost metallic taste -- very much like the gold foil version tastes like to me when freshly poured.

Perhaps this experience lends credence to my belief that something happened to the storage containers between the second and third bottlings. Or perhaps there was more oxygen in the tanks during that time.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[Gillman]

Thanks, Dave, and I do recall now you had enjoyed the gold wax version and some rye whiskeys.

You may be right about the wherefores of the seemingly lesser attributes of gold foil. Maybe the continued years in a partly empty tank did result in some changes. Maybe in particular certain volatiles lifted off, as would have occurred with a partly empty glass. Sometimes that improves a drink, but not always.

Anyway, I would consider a vatting approach to use what you have in the best way (and again not to take away from those who enjoy gold foil as it is). The dryness of the drink would improve a younger whiskey which needs some of that quality. As you don't mind the rye element, use a younger rye whiskey (such as WT rye, which you mentioned) or a rye-oriented bourbon (say, FRSB if you have that, or Grandad 86 or 101). This may refresh the Hirsch or deepen and render more complex the younger whiskeys (depending on the proportions you use). I would be interested in any comments you have on such essays.

Gary

N.B. Another suggestion is to blend it with the current Michter's Straight Rye whiskey, the one without an age expression.

[cowdery]

I hate having to relearn things I used to know. At least I was able to find a reliable source, guru and sage Tim Sousley. Quote he in 2004:

"The Michter's 1974 stock was not bottled in 1989, but was transferred from the barrels to stainless steel tanks, effectively ending aging. The initial bottling was in the early Nineties, with another following several years later. The final bottling did not take place until late last year (2003), when Julian Van Winkle (the grandson of Pappy Van Winkle) oversaw that job at Buffalo Trace Distillery in Frankfort, Ky.

"Some of the 1974 remained in barrel until 1993 and 1994. About 190 cases of 19yo were bottled in '93 (and is a very rare find). Considerably more 20yo was bottled in 1994, and all of it is gone unless a stray bottle can be found at some out-of-the-way liquor store.

The Hue family of Covington, Ky. (owners of the Cork 'n Bottle liquor stores) sold the rights to the remaining Hirsch 16yo to Henry Preiss of Preiss Imports (San Francisco) last fall. Mr. Preiss recently told me that about 2,500 cases of it -- the most recent bottling -- is in warehouse. Afer that, original Michter's will remain only in collections -- and myth."

I have seen some other sources that say Adolph Hirsch, a former Schenley executive, was involved early on, but those sources aren't as reliable as Tim, so I can't consider that confirmed. I can confirm that Hirsch was in the liquor business and was a close associate of Emil Schwarzhaupt and Leo Gerngross, who owned the Bernheim Distillery after 1993 and sold whiskey under the I.W. Harper, Old Charter and Belmont brands. Both Gerngross and Hirsch served as president of the Emil Schwarzhaupt Foundation. Although Bernheim was and is in Louisville, the business was run from Chicago.

Gerngross and Schwarzhaupt sold Bernheim to Schenley in 1937.

[TNbourbon]

I hate having to relearn things I used to know. At least I was able to find a reliable source, guru and sage Tim Sousley. Quote he in 2004:

"The Michter's 1974 stock was not bottled in 1989, but was transferred from the barrels to stainless steel tanks, effectively ending aging. The initial bottling was in the early Nineties...

Aaarghhh! This is how my life goes, folks -- having just learned that my opinion in valued by 'Mr. Bourbon', I find that my sloppy syntax may immediately devalue it.

Rereading the first line that Chuck quotes, I realize it seems to imply that the transfer from oak to stainless steel took place in 1989, when my intent was simply to imply the order in which it occurred. I think the first, early-90s bottling came more or less simultaneously with the tanking, hence its 16yo status.

Otherwise, however, the sequence is as I learned it from Mssrs. Van Winkle, Preiss, et al.

[Gillman]

Sounds like the blue wax (which I've never had) might not have been tanked, or for a very short time. Maybe that explains peoples' view (some people anyway as I recall) that it was the best. The gold wax was good too though and I did a side-by-side with a gold foil. I thought the wax was better but not by that much, I could see that for some the difference is immaterial. On the other hand, small differences can mean a lot for some. I know in beer tasting small differences between batches affect my view of them but for some of my friends they just don't care or see the differences. Different strokes for different folks, as they say..

Gary

[Hedmans Brorsa]

I have seen some other sources that say Adolph Hirsch, a former Schenley executive, was involved early on, but those sources aren't as reliable as Tim, so I can't consider that confirmed.

And yet, it is his monicker that adorns the label. If he wasn´t involved at all, then the Hue family (assuming, of course, that they christened the brand) must have held him in high reference.

Was there a Belmont brand available as late as 1993? Or is it printer´s gremlins who have paid you a visit?

[cowdery]

The source I consulted says Belmont was sold after 1933. Belmont was Max Sellinger's brand, which originated at the site of the current Bernheim and not with the pre-prohibition Bernheim company.

[MikeK]

I've had the very good fortune to try all three variations. Contrary to many, I am a fan of the Gold Foil. It has a ton of dark fruit on the nose and palate, which I really like. I find the Gold Wax slightly too old and dry, but then I'm not a fan of the older Pappy's either. I just recently opened a Blue Wax and it is showing good promise with a lot of sweetness and good age.

The Gold Foil is still available in my area if you know where to look, usually around $75.

I do have a few extra Gold and BLUE wax bottles if anyone is looking. A bottle of Joseph Finch will guarantee a spot as my favorite bourbonian while older S/W Old Fitz BIB's are also a favorite ...

[Brennan77]

Just getting around to pouring a gold foil sample. It's nicer than I remember from the two times I've sampled the bottle before. A couple of drops of water really open it a bit. The wood flavors seem nicely cooled compared to others. I really like it. The mint description is right on, IMO, especially in the enjoyably strong, but never rude lingering finish. I might have to pick up an extra bottle for long term keeping.

[Frodo]

Also, what are some of the other prices people are seeing/paying for gold foil 16 at retail. Is the $60 at Binny's a great deal, or about average?

The stuff goes for $179 at our state liqour stores up here (the LCBO). I've had one shot of the stuff at a bar, and I thought it was sublime, but it's not worth $179 cdn to me when Bookers can be had for $80, and the last dregs of ETL go for less than $40.

Not sure which version gold foil/other that we get up here. I think it's the blue wax version.

[doubleblank]

I just returned from Las Vegas (Val's hometown) and, as many here know, the Bellagio still pours Hirsch 16 Blue Wax at several of their video poker bars. They are free if you're playing the $1 games.....$12 if you're not. I put $50 into one and played dueces wild poker for an hour.....had two pours of Hirsch Blue Wax.....and left with my original $50.

Tasting wise.....I get maple and mint...followed by its signature dry finish which I like. Its not an overly woody dry finish....just a simple dry finish leaning towards being flinty (not quite metalic as some find).

BTW, these same bars will also pour you Pappy 15 or 20 "VPC" (video poker comp) as well as some fine scotches like Lagavulin 16, Talisker 10, Balvenie 15 SB and 21 yo......and even the notorious Black Whisky.

Randy

[Gillman]

Randy, will this tank the duty free business? That is a big business world-wide.

Gary

[CrispyCritter]

Well, I still have the unopened gold wax bottling - still unopened.

I ought to snag a bottle or two of the gold foil, though.

Meanwhile, I've been sampling another, completely different Hirsch bottling - the 8yo Canadian Rye. More in Non-American... but, suffice to say, it's tasty.

[TimmyBoston]

I'm very happy to see Hirsch 16 chosen this month. It is really some great stuff. I've only had the gold foil, but I think it's really great. It's one of my favorite pours. Occassionally I have a tempermental palate and my bourbon will taste astringent, but my Hirsch 16 always satisfies. I hope anybody who hasn't had it will pick up a bottle or try a pour at a friends or bar. It really is worth it.

[DrinkyBanjo]

Well I've had this bottle for almost a year and have sampled it two times before tonight. Each time I try it I like it a bit more. Tonight it was very enjoyable, nice nose and taste. A bit of a metallic taste to it though. I don't know if that thought has been put into my head though.