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dougdog

Willett Rye Origin

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dougdog

The first empty bottle of the Willetts Estate 22yo Rye...Tear...

BTW, some folks are curious about the origine of this whiskey...if I havent posted this already on the forum...to the best of my recollection, Drew described it as; Bernheim, DSP KY #1, Crem of Kentucky, Rye mash bill.

Ya'all know Drew dontcha...he's the guy who made all this happen!

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jeff
The first empty bottle of the Willetts Estate 22yo Rye...Tear...

BTW, some folks are curious about the origine of this whiskey...if I havent posted this already on the forum...to the best of my recollection, Drew described it as; Bernheim, DSP KY #1, Crem of Kentucky, rye mash bill.

Ya'all know Drew dontcha...he's the guy who made all this happen!

Wasn't COK a bourbon mashbill? Made by Ancient Age? I assumed it was distilled in Frankfort, but maybe it was purchased?

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dougdog
Wasn't COK a bourbon mashbill? Made by Ancient Age? I assumed it was distilled in Frankfort, but maybe it was purchased?

This might be better answered by Drew, Mike or Chuck.

My understanding was that they had mash bills for COK Rye and COK Bourbon. (It's not known to me that there was ever a product on the store shelf called Cream of Kentucky Straight Rye)

Cream of Kentucky was at one time a Schenley product.

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jeff
This might be better answered by Drew, Mike or Chuck.

My understanding was that they had mash bills for COK Rye and COK Bourbon. (It's not known to me that there was ever a product on the store shelf called Cream of Kentucky Straight Rye)

Cream of Kentucky was at one time a Schenley product.

Thanks Doug, I hadn't considered the possibility of a COK RYE, but I'm still confused about the DSP #1.

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jeff
Thanks Doug, I hadn't considered the possibility of a COK RYE, but I'm still confused about the DSP #1.

This post

may provide some explaination.

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dougdog
Thanks Doug, I hadn't considered the possibility of a COK RYE, but I'm still confused about the DSP #1.

Over time, with the different corporate buyouts and company takeovers, plant closeures, shadow distilling and bulk market purchases/transfers it will take a historian or someone with direct knowledge to "know" the detail.

It is just good to drink...no matter the original source.

Like Neal said...It's the juice in the botttle that counts....and now, the first bottle is empty!

I'm sure glad there is a support group out there for folks like us...

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dougdog

Jeff, in that same thread, Chuck wrote the following;

I have some information which leads me to believe that except for Rittenhouse 21, made by Heaven Hill, the other old straight ryes on the market, such as Hirsch 21, are all Kulsveen bottlings (that part's true) and all came from the rye whiskey made by Charlie Medley in Owensboro, which has most famously been sold as Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.

But Mike Veach tells me some of Van Winkle's rye has been Cream of Kentucky Rye, made at old Bernheim, and most if not all of the rye Kulsveen is selling now is that same stock.

Now I come across this thread and Ken Weber has made it clear that Cream of Kentucky Bourbon was owned by Schenley, made at BT when it was a Schenley distillery, and the brand name is owned by BT still.

That does not in any way mean a rye whiskey, intended to be sold as COK rye, may not have been made at Bernheim, which also was owned by Schenley.

Does anyone have any confirming, contradictory or simply more information about any of this?

__________________

Chuck Cowdery

"Whiskey Don't Keep."

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cowdery

I now know a little bit more about this than I did then.

Schenley (today's Diageo) used to own both Buffalo Trace and Bernheim (DSP-1) and especially for a minor brand such as COK, they might have used whiskey from either plant for any given batch of product. COK had both a bourbon and a rye. It just so happens that the barrels of COK bourbon that have emerged recently were made at BT and the barrels of COK rye were made at Bernheim (pre-reconstruction).

Part of the confusion comes from calling it COK. Calling it COK just means it was made with the intention of it being bottled as COK. When the time came there wasn't sufficient demand for it so it wasn't bottled. If Buffalo Trace has any COK rye from the same era, whether made by them or made at Bernheim, it's probably already been bottled as Sazerac.

COK was an old Schenley brand and if Sazerac owns it now, it came into their possession probably via Ferdie Falk's Age International, which was the owner of BT in between Schenley and Sazerac. Falk was an old Schenley guy and even after Schenley sold BT, the two distilleries sometimes did contract work for each other.

It just so happens that all of the old rye that KBD still has in barrels is from this DSP-1 stock. The Charlie Medley rye has, apparently, all been bottled. The Van Winkle rye is mostly Charlie Medley rye but was switched at some point to the DSP-1 rye.

Most of the above is pretty solid fact, I think. This next is conjecture. What I believe happened is that Diageo had that rye in its inventory, probably at Old Fitzgerald, and was selling it to Julian. After it passed its 13th birthday (or thereabouts) Julian decided he didn't want any more of it. Diageo then sold the remainder of it to KBD, who has sold it to Preiss (for the Hirsch Rye), Doug, LeNell and others. KBD still has some left, but there can't be very much.

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TNbourbon
...the barrels of COK rye were made at Bernheim (pre-reconstruction)...

...If Buffalo Trace has any COK rye from the same era, whether made by them or made at Bernheim, it's probably already been bottled as Sazerac...

...It just so happens that all of the old rye that KBD still has in barrels is from this DSP-1 stock...

:grin: Try Saz 18 next to the Michter's 10yo Single Barrel rye (bottled by KBD) sometime.:grin:

(I promise, this the closest I'll come to saying, 'I told you so'.)

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jeff

Good discussion merits its own thread.

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dougdog
:grin: Try Saz 18 next to the Michter's 10yo Single Barrel rye (bottled by KBD) sometime.:grin:

(I promise, this the closest I'll come to saying, 'I told you so'.)

Tim...interesting...

Is the Michter's then, 18 years old? (or older) (prox)

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cowdery

Well, Tim, I hope I never stop learning.

And speaking of sources, we fans of Rittenhouse need to tip our hats as much to Brown-Forman as to Heaven Hill, as it appears that Rittenhouse continues to be made at DSP-354, i.e., Brown-Forman's Shively distillery.

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nor02lei
:grin: Try Saz 18 next to the Michter's 10yo Single Barrel rye (bottled by KBD) sometime.:grin:

(I promise, this the closest I'll come to saying, 'I told you so'.)

Tim,

At the bourbon festival tasting Michters 10 y rye at your hotel room I thought it sound reasonably that is might be the same source as Sazerac. However still in Kentucky I did open and drink a whole bottle of Michters 10 rye, most of it at an empty stomach and I did not find it at all like Sazerac but very like overage Medley (wrong spelling?) stock (van Winkle).

Leif

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TNbourbon
Tim...interesting...

Is the Michter's then, 18 years old? (or older) (prox)

I was reliably informed it is closer to 20 years old than 10, yes.

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dgonano

IIRC the Michters 10 yr Rye was from 1984 or 1985 stock. Remember the story about all the "red tape" that the owners needed to go through in order to change the label. I believe Drew talked openly about the subject. Julian had originally bottled the rye for Michters..probably a 10 yr....when Julian could no longer bottle ( since the BT arrangement ) Drew was approached by the Michter label owners to find and bottle more rye. Well Drew had old stock

which he used to fulfill the contract. To save money and time, the 10 yr label never changed.

I suppose we should hold on to some of this rye ( any old rye ) as there is going to be a considerable time gap until current young stocks mature.

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TNbourbon
I was reliably informed it is closer to 20 years old than 10, yes.
...I believe Drew talked openly about the subject...

It was indeed Drew that both led me to believe it is similar stock to Saz 18 -- with a wink-and-a-nod-type response when I suggested it (also, Ken Weber has acknowledged to me he doesn't think BT distilled it in Frankfort) -- and that it is older than labeled.

Force of habit, you know, Dave, after all those years in the news biz, where 'burning' a source is perhaps the greatest sin. So, if I learn something in a one-on-one conversation with Drew (or anyone), I feel obliged to consider it confidential unless it's before witnesses or I'm explicitly told it isn't.

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FlashPuppy
Force of habit, you know, Dave, after all those years in the news biz, where 'burning' a source is perhaps the greatest sin. So, if I learn something in a one-on-one conversation with Drew (or anyone), I feel obliged to consider it confidential unless it's before witnesses or I'm explicitly told it isn't.

Tim- I like this policy of yours quite a bit. I wish that more people would be apt to follow it.

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dgonano

When I said that Drew talked openly on the subject, I was only referring to the age of the whiskey. A few years back everyone complained of the high price tag on the Michters 10 yr Rye. Drew informed a few of us the true age of the whiskey ( app. 19 yrs ) .... and the story of "why the label didn't reflect the age of the whiskey".

I certainly had no idea of the origin.

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Edward_call_me_Ed

Most of the above is pretty solid fact, I think. This next is conjecture. What I believe happened is that Diageo had that rye in its inventory, probably at Old Fitzgerald, and was selling it to Julian. After it passed its 13th birthday (or thereabouts) Julian decided he didn't want any more of it. Diageo then sold the remainder of it to KBD, who has sold it to Preiss (for the Hirsch Rye), Doug, LeNell and others. KBD still has some left, but there can't be very much.

So, this is probably the origin of the Olde Saint Nick Winter Rye 101 proof I have been drinking. Or maybe not. It may be too young. There isn't an age statement on the bottle, but I have heard that it is 9 years old. There is a Summer Rye that is nine years old. I have never tried it as it is the same price and lower proof.

Ed

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dougdog

For the record...

Drew just sent me a note...It was dumped and bottled on 9/12/2006.

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BourbonJoe

Excellent information as to the origins of the "old ryes" floating about.

Joe :usflag:

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HighTower

Is the Willet Rye available to purchase somewhere? If so, what is the approximate cost?? I was also wondering what I could expect to pay for a Rittenhouse 21, I'm sure Binny's could get one for me.

Scott

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BourbonJoe

You might wantto contact Doug Philips (DougDog) as to where to get some of the Willett's. It will be expensive. LeNell has stated that all the Red Hook Rye has all been sold. I paid aout 130 US for the Rittenhouse.

Joe :usflag:

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dougdog
You might wantto contact Doug Philips (DougDog) as to where to get some of the Willett's. It will be expensive. LeNell has stated that all the Red Hook Rye has all been sold. I paid aout 130 US for the Rittenhouse.

Joe :usflag:

As posted previously...

This Rye can be purchased by Calling Ed at Ledger's Liquors in Berkeley, 510-540-9243. Ed cannot ship so you will need to rely on someone local to help you out. He is closed on Sunday and Monday.

(Ed has mentioned the stock is just about gone, best call sooner than later...)

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dougdog

Things are gaining momentum to do another barrel of Rye. The barrel under consideration is one that was sampled last April. Drew is gathering another sample to confirm that things are still as good inside that barrel as they were before. In the meantime, I’m gathering souls…with enough souls on a list; I’ll then be gathering money…same as before.

Only difference this time is that there will only be 12 bottle lots…if you want fewer than 12 bottles, join forces with your buddies here on the forum, or wherever, and form your own “mini group” for a case purchase.

The total for each bottle, including ca sales tax is $68.15, a bit higher than last time, but still the same good whiskey. The barrel is yielding two cases less than last time and the retailer wants more for his operation, so there is generally less to go around…first come first serve until it is completely pre-sold.

If your order is planned to be shipped, you will be charged additional for the cost of the 12pack styrofoam container and box, plus UPS ground fees, continental US destinations only. (Sorry, no more 1 or 2 bottle deals) No insurance can be provided. Shipping will be prepaid this time...there is still one that has not paid shipping from last time...

Please....make all replys on email...do not post here or in PM's...

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