That Old Michi is Back

[Gillman]

Great information, many thanks!

There are many fans here of good beer who will be intrigued by this information.

By the way when I referred to Northern Brewer as a possible hop for the old XXX, I meant, as you again corrected and thanks, Brewer's Gold which indeed is a classic ale hop in certain areas (many French bieres de garde use it).

Whiskey and beer unite again after a fashion in the fact that for many years, the Newark and possibly Cranston, RI facilities which made Ballantine (this was before the corporate and further locational changes noted by Jess) used a still to distill hop oils. This use of the still goes back really to pre-alcohol distillation days, when it was used to refine and purify substances such as perfumes and various essences.

I was glad to see what the current Pabst CEO said about Ballantine. He is right that there are connections past and present between Ballantine and the current micro beers. I hope he makes a revival happen. It won't matter who brews the beers, if they are brewed right. At least Pabst would have the archival and historical information to brew them correctly. The IPA was really a bridge to the micro movement and it is good to hear that Maytag was inspired by it or even XXX.

Gary

[jesskidden]

By the way when I referred to Northern Brewer as a possible hop for the old XXX, I meant, as you again corrected and thanks, Brewer's Gold which indeed is a classic ale hop in certain areas (many French bieres de garde use it).

Gary

Since I don't brew anymore, I don't keep up with hop varieties but seem to recall that Brewers Gold isn't commercially grown (maybe just not in the US?) anymore? Replaced by higher alpha or better storing hybrids?

Whiskey and beer unite again after a fashion in the fact that for many years, the Newark and possibly Cranston, RI facilities which made Ballantine (this was before the corporate and further locational changes noted by Jess) used a still to distill hop oils.

Gary

Hmmm...yeah, interesting observation. And, then there's the connection with another alcoholic beverage tradition. Michael Jackson claims that the famous Ballantine Burton Ale was aged in a solera system (with new ale repleshing a small percentage of the aged stuff draw out for bottling), which certainly explains why the "brewing dates" of all the known bottlings (at least the ones I've seen) thru the 40's>60's were either May 12, 1934 or May 12, 1946. They obviously used the oldest portion of the brew as the "brewed" date.

Just realized, too, that the 1934 date was only 3 months after the brewery started brewing again (they started up a bit later than many others, post-Prohibition, due to the purchase of the brewery by the Badenhauser brothers after Repeal).

[Gillman]

The solera concept: another whisky-related idea. Glenfiddich has a solera version of its whisky. The concept makes sense for many kinds of liquors, it would be a way to stretch the goodness of older production and for beer, a way too to retain the value of the oldest component which on its own might go sour after so long a time in storage. The old porter vatting in London in the 1700's and 1800's was a similar idea. In time of course people accustomed to the sour-sweet taste of such beers and appreciated the complexity the solera imparted to whisky or sherry. Glenfiddich did not introduce a gimmick, in the annals of scotch whisky there is evidence that people topped up casks in their basements with newer whisky and the vatting experiments of the 1800's (leading to Vat 69, still sold and the first vatted malt) was a similar idea.

Brewer's Gold is still grown in parts of Europe (was in the mid-90's when I visited a number of breweries in French Flanders), I am not sure about North America, indeed hop strains keep changing.

I am not a big fan of Cascades but find it goes well in this XXX since it is meant to be drunk cold and Cascades often complement a well-chilled beer.

Gary

[ratcheer]

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

Information overload.

Tim

[jesskidden]

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

Information overload.

Tim

Sorry if this is the wrong forum for such a discussion. I think as a kid I watched too many Dragnet re-runs (Joe Friday: "Just the facts, ma'am") so while I have a hard time with some of the mis-information and opinions disguised as fact on the internet, I DO have a tendency to give ALL the facts (complete with legit sources, on request, if needed <g>). I came across Gary's interesting posts on Ballantine and it's ales (a favorite research project of mine) on this and another site (Bar Towel) and found I had come across someone whose interest jibed with mine. If this is the wrong place to share the info or if "subject drift" isn't allowed here, again, I apologize.

That being said, I picked up a sixpack of the subject All Malt Michelob yesterday. Altho' only 40 miles from the A-B brewery in Newark, it took a while to hit the shelves in my beer buying area and is already over a month old. The only other A-B product I've bought in 30 years or so (I did buy a bottle of that "Brewmasters Reserve" when it first came out), I did once taste a pretty good Michelob on tap at the brewery in Ohio (the only one I ever found to have any hop presence) and always attributed the difference to freshness and lack of pasteurization.

I found this new/old version pretty lame, sadly- and don't think I could distinguish it from any other typical macro light lager, save for a slightly darker color and a bit richer mouth feel.

I'll save the other 5 for when non-beer geeks visit.

[jesskidden]

Thanks for this, and the correction to North from South Carolina - I am quite sure Ballantine XXX is brewed there now.

Gary

A quick follow up on this. I wrote Miller to get the number code for their breweries (it's part of their multi-digit date code stamped on the bottles and cans of Ballantine XXX Ale) but have gotten no reply.

I checked the corrugated cardboard cases of the Ale yesterday at a store and see that the mfg. of the cardboard is in Cincinnati, which is near Miller's Ohio brewery in Trenton. It's not foolproof by any means, but I find the technique useful for figuring out the origin of some multi-site breweries' beers, since manufacturers will almost exclusively use a nearby box manufacturer to save on shipping costs of such bulky, heavy material, esp. since most companies use a "Just in Time" inventory system these days.

I do remember that the NC plant was brewing Ballatine's old "sister" brew (via the old Falstaff/Narragansett Cranston RI brewery), Haffenreffer Private Stock Malt Liquor and thought, too, that Ballantine was coming from there, as well. Could the ale still be selling well enough for it to be a multi-site beer? If one brewery's version is better than another's within the SABMiller empire, I'm in trouble <g> "Got any North Carolina Ballantine Ale?".

[Gillman]

Thanks Jess for all this. There are many here interested in beer and this thread is on the topic of beer.

I got the information on current Ballantine production location from www.falstaffbrewing.com. This site (which I am sure you know) is chock full of information on Falstaff and its various units and the Ballantine (and other pages) are very interesting.

I trult hope Pabst will revive the IPA including as a draft beer - it could make significant gains in the market if well-brewed.

As you may know, for a time, a micro-brewer (referred to in these pages) who later took a position with Pabst in China made a product called Woodstock IPA for Portland Brewing (now McTarnahan Brewery and a division of Pyrmid Brewing). This was his tribute to Ballantine IPA and I had it a couple of times and it was excellent. This was circa-2000. I don't know if McTarnahan still makes it, its website does not refer to it at present.

Gary

[Gillman]

Thanks Jess for all this. There are many here interested in beer and this thread is on the topic of beer.

I got the information on current Ballantine production location from www.falstaffbrewing.com. This site (which I am sure you know) is chock full of information on Falstaff and its various units, and the Ballantine (and other pages) are very interesting.

I truly hope Pabst will revive the IPA including as a draft beer - it could make significant gains in the market if well-brewed.

As you may know, for a time, a micro-brewer (referred to in these pages) who later took a position with Pabst in China made a product called Woodstock IPA for Portland Brewing (now MacTarnahan Brewery and a division of Pyramid Brewing). This was his tribute to Ballantine IPA and I had it a couple of times and it was excellent. This was circa-2000. I don't know if MacTarnahan still makes it, its website does not refer to it at present.

Gary

[jesskidden]

I got the information on current Ballantine production location from www.falstaffbrewing.com. This site (which I am sure you know) is chock full of information on Falstaff and its various units and the Ballantine (and other pages) are very interesting.

Yup, great site, I've contacted him several times and have a bunch of stuff I've been meaning to send him. He's very accurate, as well. (I can't believe how many times I've read incorrect explanations of the admittedly confusing deals between Pabst and Heileman in the early 80's on other sites or the later Pabst/Miller/Stroh(inc. Heileman) deal in '99 or how often beer sites state that "Pabst bought Falstaff" when, in actuality, Falstaff's parent company, S&P, bought Pabst.).

Altho', I see that he also give Miller's Ohio facility as the current brewery <g>.

"After the closure of Cranston, brewing of Ballantine moved to Ft Wayne and then 1990, to Pabst in Milwaukee... shut down by S&P in 1996. Production was then shifted to contract brewing at Miller in Eden, NC to the former Stroh plant in Lehigh Valley, PA and finally contract brewed at Miller in Trenton, OH."

As you may know, for a time, a micro-brewer (referred to in these pages) who later took a position with Pabst in China made a product called Woodstock IPA for Portland Brewing (now McTarnahan Brewery and a division of Pyramid Brewing). This was his tribute to Ballantine IPA and I had it a couple of times and it was excellent. This was circa-2000.

Gary

Yes, I had the Woodstock IPA but, at the time, I didn't know about it's relationship to BIPA and, frankly, can't remember it, unfortunately.

I see on the beer websites there's at least two other clone/wannabes of the Ballantine ales out there (seem to be brewpub only beers, tho'):

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/556/13471

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/boscos-ballantine-xxx-pale-ale/48852/

[Gillman]

I missed that quote (still can't find it) but was going by the quotation from Robert Newman, a Pabst brewer, who states it is currently brewed in "Miller-Eden". But that quote may be years old now and your identification of the cartons suggests Ohio manufacture.

I looked at the website of pabst - www.pabst.com - which lists many beers I didn't realise were in its portfolio. It really is (when you look at the brands as a whole) a partial snapshot of beer as it was in the 70's and early 80's. Evidently there is still a large market (or large enough) for PBR, Heilman, Oly, Special Export, etc.

I do retain a fond spot for such pre-microbrewery beers. I started drinking beer before the onset of microbrews and the serious imports and never lost the taste for a good light North American lager or ale. First, at their best, they were very good (Ballantine as we discussed, Prior Double Dark, Andeker, Michelob in the day, Coors in the day, draft Genny Cream in the schooners, etc.).

Second and of interest to me as a whiskey drinker, they go uniquely well with a shot. PBR still does.

Gary

[jesskidden]

I looked at the website of pabst - www.pabst.com - which lists many beers I didn't realise were in its portfolio. It really is (when you look at the brands as a whole) a partial snapshot of beer as it was in the 70's and early 80's. Evidently there is still a large market (or large enough) for PBR, Heilman, Oly, Special Export, etc.

There's an interveiw with the new head of Pabst, Kevin Kotecki (ex- Coors and Proctor & Gamble) in a recent issue of the industry mag, "Beverage World". (Unfortunately, not on line- only that sidebar Ballantine article linked a few posts above is.) Pabst owns 75 different brand names but "only" markets 37 of them. When asked about being a contract-brewer only, he says "I can't see any reason why I would want to own a brewery."

I was looking at some old stats the other day. Of the top 20 breweries of 1967, Pabst owns the labels of 15 of them (including 4 of the top 5).

Needless to say, the sales of those brands far outnumber the 14.4% of the market A-B had at the time. Pabst today has under 4 percent of the market, and is still going down (9.5 million bbl in 2000 to 6.2 in 2005). All those Pabst brands just barely outsell the budget Busch Beer brand from A-B.

[Gillman]

Yes, and all commercial (mass market) beer brands are declining or flat, I understand.

This is why he should be looking at including a micro-style beer in his portfolio especially since he already has it in the archives: Ballantine IPA.

I suppose too these are, today, essentially niche markets and from an investor's standpoint, the ROE may be quite good. But the decline in bbl should be a concern.

As to owning a brewery, I am not sure about the economics of that in terms of the current Pabst business model. There clearly is enough capacity to keep the Pabst brands going.

Gary

[cowdery]

Kotecki also ran Brachs candies here in Chicago and was CEO when they closed the Chicago plant.

He moved the Pabst operation to a Chicago suburb last year.

It would be incorrect to call Pabst a contract brewer. Pabst is a marketing company, not a "brewer" in any sense of the word. Miller is the "contract brewer" for most or all of the brands Pabst markets.

Many people here in Chicago were very upset when Federated Stores finally dumped the Marshall Fields name. It's the same sort of thing. What's in a name? In other words, when did Marshall Fields really cease being Marshall Fields? I can still buy an Old Style at Wrigley Field, but the La Crosse, Wisconsin brewery that made it for so many years doesn't make it and hasn't since 1999.

[jesskidden]

It would be incorrect to call Pabst a contract brewer. Pabst is a marketing company, not a "brewer" in any sense of the word.

I agree that it's a confusing term - I'm just using it as is common within the industry. Maybe there should be a "ContractOR Brewery" and a "ContractEE Brewery". I, too, prefer "marketing company" or "virtual brewer".

Here's the Brewers Association's definition (which notes the problem):

Contract Brewing Company: A business that hires another brewery to produce its beer. It can also be a brewery that hires another brewery to produce additional beer. The contract brewing company handles marketing, sales, and distribution of its beer, while generally leaving the brewing and packaging to its producer-brewery (which, confusingly, is also sometimes referred to as a contract brewery).

http://www.beertown.org/craftbrewing/statistics.html

Near the bottom of the page.

[cowdery]

Well, I guess an industry can define its terms however it wants, but in distilling it's just the opposite. A contract distiller is a distiller who contracts with others to make spirit for them to their specifications.

"Contract brewing company" is a little better than "contract brewer" or "contract brewery" since the later terms suggest that the company is a brewer/brewery, which it is not. "Virtual brewer" seems to hit the nail on the head, but is maybe a little too cute. I don't like the fundamental idea of someone who has no brewing facilities and performs no actual brewing being called a "brewer" or "brewery." It seems deliberately misleading.

You made reference earlier to a "charity." What's that about? (Gary, if you don't want to see your Michi thread highjacked, say something and we can take this elsewhere.)

[jesskidden]

"Contract brewing company" is a little better than "contract brewer" or "contract brewery" since the later terms suggest that the company is a brewer/brewery, which it is not. "Virtual brewer" seems to hit the nail on the head, but is maybe a little too cute. I don't like the fundamental idea of someone who has no brewing facilities and performs no actual brewing being called a "brewer" or "brewery." It seems deliberately misleading.

Yeah, I don't like "brewery/brewer" in the name, either. Maybe "Contract Beer Company" works best. I can never decide if "Virtual Brewery" is cute or a put-down. I'd expect Pabst to consider it the latter.

You made reference earlier to a "charity." What's that about?

Pabst was bought in the mid-80's by the S&P Corporation, the parent company of, at the time, Falstaff-General-Pearl. It was run by Paul Kalmanovitz, who was notorious for buying breweries, cutting to bone and running the business into the ground and moving on, leaving a lot of unemployed workers and shipping the brewing equipment to China. I read of questionable tax manipulations done when, say, "Falstaff" would "sell" certain assets to "Pearl" at a loss, to make it look less profitable on the books, etc. (That Falstaff site Gary linked to above is a great overview).

Kalmanovitz died in the late 80's and his estate, including the brewery holdings was converted into the Kalmanovitz Charity Trust, which "owns" Pabst (all the other brewing companies having since been rolled into that company)- tho' the corporation continued to run in the same manner (Every few years an article will state that it's against IRS rules for such a Trust to "own" a corporation and Pabst will have to be sold but it never happens).

Folks in Milwaukee have a particular hatred of him, for manipulating some rules and screwing a lot of people out of a pension at Pabst (and, to some extent, Schlitz, too, since Pabst owns that label now). As I recall that story, pension contract rules stated that if a brewery closed, certain payments must be made, so Pabst kept one man working in Milwaukee and claimed the brewery was not closed by only "idled" (or something like that, not sure of the technical term, now) and the pension fund wasn't being funded properly. (Again, that's from memory...).

Here's some of the particulars of the "scam" aspect, about 1/4 of the way down, in an article titled "Who Really Owns Pabst". http://www.milwaukeeworld.com/blog/2006_07_01_michaelhorne_archive.html

As you note, the Pabst "headquarters" (which is probably mostly Kolecki's laptop) moved to Illinois last year and they were "rumored" to be considering Milwaukee, but I don't think they wanted them in the Beer City...

(Gary, if you don't want to see your Michi thread highjacked, say something and we can take this elsewhere.)

Yeah, sorry 'bout that, but it happens when one is drinking beer or whiskey, so I suppose it's bound to happen even if one's only discussing it.

[Gillman]

This thread is all about the large brewer styles vs. the more traditional (I had speculated that the new Michelob would return the brand to its presumed roots) and its various directions are not far off, or are alongside, the main route.

As to terminology, I have seen the term contract brewer used more in the sense Chuck has argued but I've been around long enough to know that terminology is variable and used by various parties differently, and all this is valid since language is a living thing and has no absolute value.

We have a beer in Toronto called Granite Best Bitter which is similar in some ways to the old Ballantine IPA. It isn't put in oak but otherwise the taste is similar (I don't think oak was used in the later brewings of BIPA). This is a typically English taste. There are hundreds of craft IPAs in the U.S. and many of those too would be as good or better than even the original BIPA.

I had a great beer in the well-hopped English style last night, Bishop's Finger, from Shepheard Neame in England. A fine big biscuity beer with an interesting hop flavor that wasn't quite Goldings or Fuggles as I recalled them but something a little different (as Jess says the varieties keep changing). This was like a Bass Ale on steroids and almost tasted unfiltered. This is a type of IPA (all Bass labels originally said "IPA" in small letters). There are many great American pale ales and IPAs being made today too.

Now when I come home, I usually have a beer and a whiskey. A couple of sips of whiskey, then some beer, then some whiskey. But care is advised in such bibulous peregrinations.

Gary

[JeffRenner]

Bishop's Finger, from Shepheard Neame in England. ... an interesting hop flavor that wasn't quite Goldings or Fuggles as I recalled them but something a little different (as Jess says the varieties keep changing).

According to Roger Protz's Real Ale Almanac (1998 5th edition, 6th edition soon to be released), Bishop's Finger is hopped with Kent Target and Goldings hop pellets for 43 International Bitterness Units (IBU). It is dry hopped.

However, Shepherd Neame's web site mentions only Goldings. Of course, that means only that it's the only hop they care to mention, probably because it is a premium hop. They also mention only malt in the mash, but the Real Ale Almanac says they use 10% cereal adjuncts. Probably corn (maize), I would guess.

My guess is that Target is used in the boil, not for dry hopping.

I like Target hops and just used some early in the boil for bittering (not for flavor or aroma), along with later additions of Goldings and Willamette, in a nice best bitter I brewed two weeks ago.

(How's this for even more TMI, Tim? )

[Gillman]

It is salutary to note that hops are used in the preparation of some jug yeasts used in American distilleries. What kind, and what specific impact on the yeast, have never been discussed here as far as I know. Probably the idea is to assist the stability of the yeast since hops have an amazing preservative quality.

I don't get in the Shep's the same kind of Goldings quality I get in some other English beers (that big soft lemony taste), but no doubt it is mixed into the Bishop's Finger somewhere. The Target is, I suspect, the dominant influence even if the beer is dry-hopped with Goldings. I have found it remarkable how dry hop character can lift off after a while.

Funny you say adjunct is used, Jeff: I thought I noticed it and assumed it was a wheat addition, which as you know is sometimes done in the U.K., partly for head retention. I prefer an all-malt spec almost always if the style is English ale. I don't mind in Belgian beers when there is so much (often) happening from their crazy yeasts or the spice additions they use. And I don't mind sugar for priming, that is part of ale tradition.

Quite amazingly, Ballantine XXX is dry hopped, with Cascades - this must be a first (or a last!) for an American mass market commercial beer.

Beer may sound arcane but I find many intersections with distilled spirits.

Gary

[cowdery]

Thanks, Jess. The more I read about this Pabst operation, the less I like it.

[Gillman]

The era in question brings to memory that of the "raider". Of course, for every buyer there is a seller. Also, many of these companies were bought by people who saw value not fully reflected in their share price.

Gary

[JeffRenner]

Funny you say adjunct is used, Jeff: I thought I noticed it and assumed it was a wheat addition, which as you know is sometimes done in the U.K., partly for head retention. I prefer an all-malt spec almost always if the style is English ale.

Wheat is used for head retention in some British beers, but usually only a few percent. Maize is generally the cheapest cereal and is the most common adjunct when used to reduce the malt content, both for flavor and also to reduce the protein level for clarity. This latter is hardly necessary in the low protein British malts.

Sugar, often invert and often caramelized, is also a common adjunct in many of the ales from old-line UK breweries. All-malt is pretty much the rule for the new ones.

Right now I am supping a pint of my latest bitter. It is the 1.045 OG best bitter (all-malt) mentioned earlier, dry hopped with Goldings, but then I diluted 4.25 gallons to five gallons @ 1.038 OG (~3.8% abv) for my St. Patrick's Day party last Saturday for reasons of sanity. I put it on hand pump and we drank most of it, but stayed reasonably sober.

That's the beauty a low gravity British-style ordinary or session bitter. You can pack it full of flavor with good malt and hops and a characterful yeast, and still have low alcohol. Of course, serving it at cellar temperature (~53F/12C) with low carbonation on the hand pump adds to the flavor.

Jeff

[Gillman]

Sounds great Jeff, thanks.

Gary

[jesskidden]

The era in question brings to memory that of the "raider". Of course, for every buyer there is a seller. Also, many of these companies were bought by people who saw value not fully reflected in their share price.

Gary

Well, Wall Street corporate finance sure isn't my field <g>, but I thought most of those sorts of deals, the so-called "hostile take-overs" by corporate raiders were done against the wishes of the "sellers" and, if they failed, they often weakened the company that was trying to fight off being bought to the point where they collapsed later anyway. A main factor in many "successful" corporate takeover was to sell off assets (thought worth more than the initial purchase price, etc). Irwin Jacobs, one of the notorious "raiders" of the era, began his "career" with the purchase and sale of the Grain Belt Brewery in MN, as well as being mixed up with Pabst in the 80's, IIRC. And, of course, the Australian raider Bond was responsible for the weakening and eventual collapse of Heileman.

I suppose the conversation turns too political (for me, as a newbie here, at least <g>) but, I guess, most people want to at least *think* that the company they're "supporting" by buying and drinking their beer (or, whatever beverage or other product) is, to put it perhaps too simply, in business to make good beer, not *just* money.

Kalmanovitz's history is similar to many of the raiders, tho' he tended to concentrate on the brewing industry. His policies were even made part of corporate law, when a lawsuit against him by shareholders of Ballantine came to define "Best Effort" in contracts. Indeed, a look at his corporate history implies that while he laid off workers, slashed office staff, fired advertising execs and marketing departments, closed breweries left and right, he must have had a lot of lawyers, cause he sure was in court a lot.

Many of these corporate raiders are also notorious for raiding pension funds (seen as one of the "assets" to be exploited) so that even workers who retire suffered, and I think that kind of financial trickery is especially distasteful to workers and the communities. The last owners of Ballantine in Newark, "Investors Funding" (great name- they apparently never came out with "Investors Funding Lager") became known for that locally.

[gr8erdane]

I finally was able to find a store here that had the new Michelob and I was surprised when I took my first drink. The first thing that came to mind was RICE CAKE. Not a bad beer for AB but still not the Michelob I remember from yore. This weekend I'll go back and try again but I do prefer Amber Bock to this one so far. I remember when they rolled out amber bock it was with several other nostalgic beers that I still see from time to time on the AB area of the cooler. Honey Lager is just a bit sweet, Black and Tan doesn't taste a thing like the real deal, and there were a couple more I don't remember the names of that came out at the same time. To me, the standard Buds and Millers started to go through the changes many have described here when America went "light beer" crazy. It seems to me that the current formulas would have been considered "light" compared to their same labels twenty five years ago. I always drank regular Bud over Bud Light even though everyone else in my group was gaga over BL. What really irks me is to go to Busch Stadium for a game and have to pay ridiculous prices for a beer and then five out of six vendors only carry BL. I usually have to buy two Buds at a time on those occasions or I go dry waiting for that one shining vendor....HEY BUDMAN!