Barrel Timbers

[RyanStotz]

Ralph:

> Now, if you could discern from cloud movements why Van Winkle 10 yr. old has

> a crappy old plastic screw top, then your guidance of the tribe will be

> legend forever...

Didn't even have to consult the clouds for this one, though it's only offered as an opinion: I prefer the screw caps. They make a better seal, for one, and prevent me from having to go through my collection every so often and rewet every damned cork stopper. It's also possible that some bourbons suffer from what's usually only talked about in wine circles: cork taint. Cork problems can seriously affect the taste of wines (and beers in corked bottles), so I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to bourbon. Sure, the bourbon isn't in contact with the cork so much once it's in your cabinet, but when it's being shipped or carted around, it's getting plenty of quality time with that cork. Wouldn't mind seeing some studies on this.

Stotz

[cowdery]

Cork closures for whiskey are about packaging cachet, pure and simple. They aren't "better," they're worse. The plastic screw cap has the most practical value.

--Chuck Cowdery

[rwilps]

To those who responded about my "crappy plastic cap" wisecrack:

That's another great thing about bourbon, and those who love it - you can't put on airs for long with either one. OK, all, I'll go back to contemplating how easily I'm sucked in by "marketing cachet" while staring into a glass of Old Overholt. With enough time I may yet be saved - I can feel all that single-malt Scotch stuffiness clearing out.

Ralph Wilps

[jvanwinkle]

I think I saw my name go by so I'll respond on this "cap" business.

Being a small producer, I am at the mercy of the "Bottle Gods" as to what bottle I can use for my whiskey. I have to use a stock bottle or else get a mold made for a mere $30,000.00 for a special design. The bottle I use is actually owned by another producer, and they very kindly let me use it. Unfortunately it has a screw cap. I would prefer a cork in all my bottles, but that's the way it goes.

Julian

[RyanStotz]

Ralph:

> OK, all, I'll go back to contemplating how easily I'm sucked in by "marketing

> cachet" while staring into a glass of Old Overholt.

Hey, it's not just you. Those cork stoppers wouldn't be around if the marketing cachet didn't work on nearly everyone. I don't think many would dispute that they look nicer (especially the metal one on the WT Kentucky Spirit -- yow!), but they're fraught with problems. Like the cork that snapped off in my bottle of Benchmark Single Barrel. Try removing one of those with a corkscrew if you're sitting around with nothing to do and want to get very, very pissed off.

> With enough time I may yet be saved - I can feel all that single-malt Scotch

> stuffiness clearing out.

Took years for me. I'm still working on it, in fact (still can't bring myself to add ice to any whisk(e)y, but I'll come around eventually).

Stotz

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

hmm, interesting point you've made here. Trees, and I am only assuming all trees, do in fact absorb elements from the soil in which they're grown and the water that their roots systems have access too. I know for example that Pines absorb salt. I know this as a local paper mill have a slightly higher salt content in the water they discard after manufacturing etc so they've grown Pine plantations around the mill where this water is spent. By the time the water reaches the water table / stream its purer than it was when they extracted same. They've chosen pines because these trees do absorb the salt while other native varieties do not.

Now I reckon thats Great Mate - woof!

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Quite recently I purchased a number of bottles of Bourbon, many I'd not before tasted - or seen, in the case of the Rip Van Winkle and Elija Craig. This was done to educate an Irish Whiskey drinkin' friend. We both remarked upon the emergence of corks in 'upper shelf' whiskey bottles. You don't get corks in Turkey but you get em' in their 8 year old. You don't get em' in Jack Daniels but Gentleman Jack have them. The Elija Craig is a corked decanter type bottle also. We both liked corked bottles, they're classy. My passion for bourbon preceded my passion for a good Red by many years. Wine of course is always corked and they do have some problems mainly due to leakage. This has spurred the development of the plastic cork and other sealing devices to possibly dispence with corks altogether. However, this has had the wine drinkers up in arms. A bottle of wine without the cork is akin to sex without foreplay. The removal of the bottles foil, the meticulous insertion of the corkscrew, the actual removal of the cork and customary sniff followed by a period of breathing are all elements of the process undertaken in a near ritual like manner. I have vowed to never drink wine from a manufacturer utilising plastic corks. As stated here at Straight Bourbon corks may not be the most desirable sealing agent for Bourbon, but they are as classy as hell and such class, such as bottle shape, label design, heritage etc all contribute undeniably to the product, and marketing of that product gentleman, ladies and others, is a very important aspect of the distillers success. A great Bourbon ain't no good if it can't be found or wont be bought. How would you fancy your Bookers in a tin ? Anyway I have noticed the corks used for Whiskey appear much lighter in colour and of a higher quality than their average wine bottle cousins. Perhaps those distillers using corks are aware of the problems potentially associated with same and utilise a higher quality cork to prevent such problems ? I would imagine also that the insertion of corks would require a different bottle design along with a different process to fill and seal the bottle. As Julian has pointed out such would involve substantial investment and possibly be to the detriment of the bottles contents. I guess its a dilema.

FYI: I'm a Shiraz man. Shiraz - a great great red wine all too often found blended with Cabernet - 80% 20% in the Cab's favour.

Glenn

Now I reckon thats Great Mate - woof!

[rwilps]

Glenn:

I'm glad you thought about my post. Aside from the issue of toxins in barrel wood, your observation of pine trees absorbing salt may explain the mystery of "sugar" or "honey" barrels that impart a particularly good flavor to whiskey during aging. Maybe its as simple as the fact that the tree which supplied the barrel staves absorbed nutrients or trace minerals such that they had optimal sugar and tannin content. If we test wine grapes for sugar and acid content, why shouldn't we test trees to identify the ones which would make the best-tasting barrel staves?

Ralph Wilps

[RyanStotz]

Glenn:

> Wine of course is always corked and they do have some problems mainly due to

> leakage. This has spurred the development of the plastic cork and other

> sealing devices to possibly dispence with corks altogether.

Cork taint, required recorking of very fine wines every 25 years or so, short cork supply and other problems are attendant to cork usage. It'd take more than just leakage problems for the use of alternative closure methods to have gained the modicum of use and acceptance they have.

> However, this has had the wine drinkers up in arms.

Not this one. Not many that I know, in fact. Most people who seem to have a problem with cork/screwtop closures are people who haven't had a good wine using them, and they do exist.

> A bottle of wine without the cork is akin to sex without foreplay. The

> removal of the bottles foil, the meticulous insertion of the corkscrew, the

> actual removal of the cork and customary sniff followed by a period of

> breathing are all elements of the process undertaken in a near ritual like

> manner.

All true, and there's a certain charm to that. I even engage in it myself on occasion. However, all that won't affect how the wine really tastes. It can and will affect the perception of a wine's taste to those easily influenced by the showy rituals, but the only way a plastic cork or screwtop closure can possibly affect the taste of a wine would be for the better; no cork taint, no oxidation, no leakage, ergo, better quality wine.

> I have vowed to never drink wine from a manufacturer utilising plastic corks.

Then you're missing out on some fantastic wines. Not drinking the Silvan Ridge late-harvest riesling simply because it has a plastic cork is to miss out on a world-class wine.

But let's take it a step further: Would you drink bourbon or, indeed, use any other product from a corporation which owns wineries which utilize plastic corks? Answer carefully, because I'm willing to bet you already are.

> As stated here at Straight Bourbon corks may not be the most desirable

> sealing agent for Bourbon, but they are as classy as hell and such class,

> such as bottle shape, label design, heritage etc all contribute undeniably to

> the product,

True, they contribute to perception of quality for some people. And I do, generally speaking, prefer the look of a cork, as would most I think. But to say that any of the above actually contribute to the quality of the product is going a bit far. It's still the same bourbon in the bottle, no matter how the bottle's closed -- until the bourbon (or any whisk[e]y for that matter) is negatively impacted by oxidation because of a poor/dried-out cork seal.

> and marketing of that product gentleman, ladies and others, is a very

> important aspect of the distillers success.

Unfortunately true, to a certain extent, but read on...

> A great Bourbon ain't no good if it can't be found or wont be bought. How

> would you fancy your Bookers in a tin ?

Well, what do these whiskeys all have in common?

Maker's Mark

Jack Daniel's

Jim Beam white label

Old Charter

Old Fitzgerald

Two things. First, they all use screwcap closures. Second, they're among the top selling whiskeys in the world. No problem being found, no problem being bought. I could run off a list of very nicely packaged bourbons that are priced along the same lines as the above (the Elijah Craig you mentioned, for instance) that don't sell even a fraction of the above. Yes, the marketing value in corked closures exists, but it's very, very overrated. The people willing to pay more for the more expensive, nicely packaged bourbons likely already know to pay for quality, not packaging. Put it this way: Would you buy a screwtop Old Rip bourbon again? How about the elaborately packaged Basil Hayden (which I love, but most really do not)? There's your answer.

> Anyway I have noticed the corks used for Whiskey appear much lighter in

> colour and of a higher quality than their average wine bottle cousins.

> Perhaps those distillers using corks are aware of the problems potentially

> associated with same and utilise a higher quality cork to prevent such

> problems ?

Main reason they use a tighter, smoother cork is that they know it'll be slipping in and out of a bottleneck numerous times, as opposed to the one or two times for a wine.

> I would imagine also that the insertion of corks would require a different

> bottle design along with a different process to fill and seal the bottle.

Well, yes, but they'd never do this to a bourbon, for the reason stated above.

> As Julian has pointed out such would involve substantial investment and

> possibly be to the detriment of the bottles contents.

He did point out that it'd be more expensive, but I can't find anything he said about being to the detriment of the bourbon. Cork stoppers would be a detriment to the bourbon, though, correct.

> I guess its a dilema.

Sure enough is that.

Stotz

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Ralph

Taking into consideration the tradition and heritage of Bourbon production and development I think its not unfeasible to assume someone at some point has considered growing White Oak trees in a particular soil or location and perhaps even controlling their nutrient source, to impart particular nuances to the whiskey stored in barrels built from the timber of these trees.

It'd be a lot of work and you'd probably be resigned to the fact that your grandchildren (likely future distillers acccording to tradition) would enjoy the rewards of same if such efforts were markedly successful.

Anybody know how long it takes for White Oak trees to mature ?

Glenn

Now I reckon thats Great Mate - woof!

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Ralph you haven't been around in awhile, but I thought I'd answer your question anyway. Having met Julian P. Van Winkel III for the first time at this year's (2001) Bourbon Festival I can tell you that Julian likes this bottle and cap combo because 1) it is the traditional W.L. Weller Bottle and 2) because it is cheap! Julian has to support his family on quite a small volume of sales. He's a bit tight because he has to be. His bottle is simple. His label is both simple and traditional. The Van Winkle legacy says 'fine bourbon always'. I don't like wheaters as a rule, but I do like Van Winkle bourbon because at that advanced age it just doesn't taste wheated to me. Julian was a hoot at the fest. His son Preston was very personable and quite a prankster. The family tradition looks to be in good hands.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.