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Before Makers' Mark, it was not OK for bourbon to taste good!


BBQ+Bourbon
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There might be. They may come from different parts of the warehouse. Only BT knows for sure.

We went through this ad nauseum when OWA went NAS while you were on your hiatus from SB.

OWA and WSR are sourced from the same barrel dump. A fraction of the juice is sent to be cut to proof for OWA and the remainder is cut to proof for WSR.

This info came straight from BT when I was there last fall. It was to answer a question about OWA going NAS and was followed with "if WSR loses its age statement, then worry."

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We went through this ad nauseum when OWA went NAS while you were on your hiatus from SB.

I was still reading. Just not posting.

I just don't remember the thread.

OWA and WSR are sourced from the same barrel dump. A fraction of the juice is sent to be cut to proof for OWA and the remainder is cut to proof for WSR.

This info came straight from BT when I was there last fall. It was to answer a question about OWA going NAS and was followed with "if WSR loses its age statement, then worry."

Thank you for the information!

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So many interesting ideas and directions here. I always find it interesting when people aren't interested to try something different. Maybe it depends on the product. Recently in a commercial-oriented bar in Toronto I commented that no craft beer was available. The server (in no way showing annoyance, but more wondrously) said it was the first time in 10 years she had heard anyone comment on brand availability or quality. I said, what if you don't have what they ask for? She said, I will suggest something else, and they always say OK. This suggests beer is a generic category to these buyers. Clearly one's whiskey is viewed differently by many (although it didn't used to be anywhere in fact, branding occurred much later).

If someone offers me a different brand of cookies than I usually buy, I'll try them, and wouldn't take offence regardless of cost. I'll try anything once.

Gary

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By the way, about 2 months after visiting that bar (re the beer choice) I went back. I completely forgot about that palaver on brand choice in the bar. But the same server came over and remembered, and said, "now we have thus and such brand", a kind of faux-micro brand made by one of the big brewers but still pretty good. I was surprised she remembered! This shows that consumer reaction albeit in a small way can make a difference.

Gary

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I am lost in this discussion at this point, but did I hear someone mention somewhere that they think most beer drinkers don't like the taste of beer?

Well, that is a bit dated info, I think. Lots of fans of craft beers these days. Very similar issue to the one we are discussing, though I won't agree that MM : ORVW as Budweiser : Sierra Nevada (or insert favorite craft brewer). More like Sierra Nevada to Court Ave Brewing Company (small local brew pub) in my home town.

Both are good products and high quality, one just goes for an even smaller percentage of an already small slice of the consumer pie.

Gonna have a glass of MM tonight just in honor of this thread, and enjoy it.

:)

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I will try to find that poll I mentioned. Craft beer is growing but in Canada at any rate it doesn't have more than 7% or so of the total market.

Gary

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While the availability of craft beers in the U.S. has grown incredibly over the past twenty-five years, it's still just a drop in the bucket.

I think the fact that Corona is the best-selling imported beer in the U.S., and probably outsells any craft beer, support the contention that most beer drinkers don't drink beer for taste. Corona with lime tastes a lot like club soda with lime.

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RE Canada Beer: The beer situation there is horrible. The "Beer Store" stocks little but sub par Euro beers and vaguely branded Canadian major faux craft garbage.

RE US Beer: Alabama finally let good beer in state. It's coming along. Ohio only let it in about 8 years or so ago.

RE US Ohio Beer: We have everything here in Cleveland. Another Brewery is on the way in the summer and many bars where you can get a large selection of micros from coast to coast and darn near any import you can think of. The stores are similar, but you need to know where to look. Right now, the US is the beer capital of the world. I was in the UK for the Holidays and the beer there sucks. I was drinking all cask ales but if you lined up a Bitter, ESB, and a Brown cask ale I would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

I got a big kick out of being in a bar in Sheffield that had about 15 taps and the only tap they were out of was Stone Ruination. Go figure. Stones plans to establish a brewery in Europe is brilliant.

Back on topic, to me MMark = Bose = Budweiser = Cuervo etc. You get the idea.

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Well, that is a bit dated info, I think. Lots of fans of craft beers these days. Very similar issue to the one we are discussing, though I won't agree that MM : ORVW as Budweiser : Sierra Nevada (or insert favorite craft brewer). More like Sierra Nevada to Court Ave Brewing Company (small local brew pub) in my home town.

Both are good products and high quality, one just goes for an even smaller percentage of an already small slice of the consumer pie.

Really??? Budweiser is a good product? Really???

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I guess I don't understand what you mean?

The symbol I used is commonly understood as "is to", such as cat is to dog or cat : dog.

It does not mean "equals".

My point was that both MM and ABInBev make a good product that sells to many folks, versus competition in their same markets.

Man, lots of "snobs", both beer and burbon, coming out of the woodwork on this one. Is this a wine website, suddenly?

Anyway, I am no huge Budweiser fan, but besides being boring for a lager / pilsner, it is not a "bad" product. It just doesn't appeal to the tiny percentage of people that will only drink craft beers, much the same way that MM doesn't appeal to the very tiny percentage of an already tiny percentage of people that actually enjoy burbon or whisk(e)y.

As someone else said earlier, I drink what I like, not what others think I should like.

Much anger, I sense in you. (Making Yoda sounds)

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While I am well aware of how ":" functions in an analogy, I'll admit I might have misunderstood your statement. It is not clear which two products you are referring to when you say "both are good products" Are you saying MM and ORVW are both good products (I would agree with that). Are you saying Sierra Nevada and Court Ave are both good products (Haven't had the later, but I bet I would still probably agree). Or, as I assumed, are you saying MM and Budweiser are both good products (that, I won't agree with).

Inbev currently holds 50% of the beer market in the US. Obviously they are doing something right and plenty of people are drinking it. But that does not mean it is a "good" product.

You are right there is not a whole lot of love for MM on the board, but I would say most people here can appreciate it. I have had my fair share of bourbon and while MM is not my favorite, I would gladly choose it over many other bottles (and I think most people here would agree.)

That is the difference I see. I doubt you could find a beer snob that can appreciate a Budweiser. But with MM, even if people don't think it lives up to the hype, even the snobs can find a few redeeming qualities with it. (But then again, maybe I am just a bitter old man)

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I've long been associated with the viewpoint that Maker's isn't what it could be, or ought to be, so I find myself in the unusual position of being its defender here: There's nothing wrong with Maker's Mark! I enjoy it. It's about the best one can expect from a c. 6yo, 90-proof wheater.

My gripe with MM always has been that its single iteration is/was underaged, and therefore 'unfinished'. In fact, the lack of a finish, taste-wise, was its worst sin, for me, because everything about it up to the point when you expect to relish the finish is quite good.

I'll vote yay in favor of this being the best comment about the actual whiskey and would add that 100 proof does seem to be the magic spot for wheaters, also, no matter the distillery. Can you hear me BT distillery/ Weller 12?

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While I am well aware of how ":" functions in an analogy, I'll admit I might have misunderstood your statement. It is not clear which two products you are referring to when you say "both are good products" Are you saying MM and ORVW are both good products (I would agree with that). Are you saying Sierra Nevada and Court Ave are both good products (Haven't had the later, but I bet I would still probably agree). Or, as I assumed, are you saying MM and Budweiser are both good products (that, I won't agree with).

Inbev currently holds 50% of the beer market in the US. Obviously they are doing something right and plenty of people are drinking it. But that does not mean it is a "good" product.

You are right there is not a whole lot of love for MM on the board, but I would say most people here can appreciate it. I have had my fair share of bourbon and while MM is not my favorite, I would gladly choose it over many other bottles (and I think most people here would agree.)

That is the difference I see. I doubt you could find a beer snob that can appreciate a Budweiser. But with MM, even if people don't think it lives up to the hype, even the snobs can find a few redeeming qualities with it. (But then again, maybe I am just a bitter old man)

I was just saying that both MM and Budweiser are products that sell well and are not crap (even if the tiny percentage of enthusiasts dislike them), but do not appeal to the high end enthusiasts. I am not making any direct comparisons between MM and Bud.

MM to ORVW and Sierra Nevada to CABCO (local brew pub, craft brewery you enjoy).

One appeals to a much wider swath of consumers than the other, but both are good products. When you go to a company as large as AB, it gets pretty hard to find a comparison.

I was at Boulevard Brewing Co. last summer and was told in the tour that the Budweiser plant in St. Louis can make as much beer in one day (could have been one shift) as Blvd Brewing can make in a year. They have a nice new brew house, as well. Its just that big.

Anyway, just surprised by the animosity that MM brings out on this usually friendly board. It's like people love to hate on it and just start slamming it, and at the same time, insulting those who DO enjoy it.

Also, I am a "beer snob" and I can appreciate Budweiser for what it is. A massively produced, light lager that is great for an after work out beverage. It is what it is, but I don't know that I would call it a "bad" product just because I do not enjoy it as much as something else.

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...Anyway, just surprised by the animosity that MM brings out on this usually friendly board. It's like people love to hate on it and just start slamming it, and at the same time, insulting those who DO enjoy it.

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Inthewater-

I think that most of us are displaying animosity not because maker's mark is a bad product- it isn't- but because they make claims MUCH larger (and much more loudly) than their product is. I enjoy maker's mark, but have little respect (or perhaps grudging respect?) for an ad campaign that can create people who truly believe that there is not a better whiskey and won't try other things.

It's a bit like Jack Daniels- I don't think there's a single other whiskey that goes as well in coca-cola with a bit of lime, and if I wanted any sort of whiskey in coke, It would be a jack 'n coke. I find Jack Daniels and coke to be absolutely delicious. Jack Daniel's isn't my favorite, and they certainly aren't the best, but they do have a coca-cola sized ad campaign to advertise their product everywhere in the world.

The difference between Maker's Mark and Jack Daniel's, however, is that Jack put out a couple of other types of Jack- and on at least one occasion I had a single barrel of Jack that was absolutely amazing. By far my biggest problem with Maker's Mark is that they spend so much money on saying how awesome their product is, that they can't seem to actually make some of it that way. But, perhaps that will change- I will eagerly try this new Maker's Mark product with hope.

I am jaded/cynical/wary of products that scream the most loudly, and I typically hate TV commercials. Perhaps that adds some to my disdain of Maker's. I work for a company that tries its absolute hardest to be the best in its field, and I sometimes have trouble respecting companies that only scream loudly and are only mediocre. That type of advertising has always read like a caveat emptor to me.

All of that being said, I do enjoy maker's mark. I would choose it over very many other types of bourbon, but I am (unfortunately) the type of person that finds their ad campaign a turnoff and feels that their product could be better.

I hope you understand my standpoint a little bit better. There's a lot of tone of voice that gets completely lost in text format. If I ever found myself at your house, and you offered me a pour of maker's, I would not be offended. :)

HOWEVER,

Erik:

I must be living in a cave.:D Can you give me some specifics of the advertising for MM that creates the single-minded people that you describe. And, how is it really different in the message than any other bourbon or consumer product? Are Wichita and Tucson really saturated with so much MM advertising? I swear, I only see the occasional billboard. I mean occasional, as in 3 a year. And, the billboards typically are whimsical and light, without mentioning the benefits that would cause the reactions from their supporters that you and others write about. I can't remember the last print ad I saw, though I'm sure they're out there.

I'm sorry if I sound obtuse, but I continue to not buy the fact that there is this avalanche of MM marketing and advertising.

They've built a terrific brand. No doubt. But the beauty of their brand is that those who tried it, apparantly continue to buy it. And, they tell others about their positive experience. Which brings in more. Golden. Sounds more like a good product, than mind controlling advertising.

I also don't get that it's bad for a bourbon to tell it's customers that it's the best they can get. Should they say it sucks?

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"Our stuff is allright, but you'd be better off buying our competitors product."

Sounds like a winner of an advertising campaign.

Joe - You put into much better words what I was thinking. It seems like people are more upset by the fact that they have had success, and that they personally don't think they are the best, than any huge problem with the product itself.

Sounds to me like they have just had good luck with their marketing schemes. Money well spent.

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My favorite whiskey depends on the day of the week, the moon, the sun, and sometimes how the planets are aligned. Since I have no ambition to actually calculate where these things are on any given day, I usually just work my way around the shelf to find what I like. And by then, I'm definitely in no mood to calculate all these alignments and document what I liked, and how these things were all lined up at the time. I think Mars was inside of Orion the last time I really enjoyed some MM. Now, if I just had the patience, and the memory, to remember to drink MM then, I would be one smart bourbonian. But I'm not.

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Hehe, I just need to drink more burbon and read the forums less, unless I am looking for information about buying more burbon to drink.

That is my problem.

Gonna have a big 'ol glass of Buffalo Trace tonight. :) After a free home brew event that a local pub puts on called Jimmy Carter Happy Hour.

Should be a good night, for me anyway. :lol:

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Really??? Budweiser is a good product? Really???

Yes, really. It's well made. It could be made less expensively, but it isn't. They make exactly the beer they want to, year after year, no matter which brewery, and it is a beer that millions of people want to drink.

It's not the kind of beer I prefer, but the light "American Pilsner" is solid style of beer that a lot of breweries make, and I don't think any do a better job than AB.

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I think there is an innate need for people to have brand loyalty.

From a psychological perspective, it reduces the anxiety associated with selection from a diverse population of choices.

Once an association is made with a brand, team, model etc, it makes life easier because it no longer requires research, decision making, buyer's remorse etc. to play into the transaction

The logic and terms of loyalty are not easy to identify but we see them here all the time.

My dad drank it. An "expert" drinks it, it appeared on the table at the Gazebo, it makes a great manhattan, its a good value.

Many people here don't suffer the neuroses associated with making a bad choice. They can brush off having purchased something that was too expensive, doesn't taste right or even if the cork is hard to pull. MOST CAN"T. They have to make the best decision every time!!!! They pride themselves on never owning a car that was lemon, a toaster that was recalled or seeing a movie that had a bad ending.

Pride and intelligence are inextricably tied to "Good Judgement" in today's society. Heck, we even pride ourselves on voting for the guy who got elected, like that made them a better politician or leader. Wow, the :shithappens: getting pretty deep.

All this MM talk is nothing but posing about being on the winning team.

Some truly independent thinkers take joy in failure and the learnings that come with it.

Its not about winning and losing, being a fan of the championship team or having the car you own be the Motor Trend Car of the Year.

To me, its enough to try it, formulate an opinion and be willing to allow others their opinion.

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I am lost in this discussion at this point, but did I hear someone mention somewhere that they think most beer drinkers don't like the taste of beer?

:)

Well, if true, it would help explain the popularity of lite beer....

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I think there is an innate need for people to have brand loyalty.

From a psychological perspective, it reduces the anxiety associated with selection from a diverse population of choices.

Once an association is made with a brand, team, model etc, it makes life easier because it no longer requires research, decision making, buyer's remorse etc. to play into the transaction

The logic and terms of loyalty are not easy to identify but we see them here all the time.

My dad drank it. An "expert" drinks it, it appeared on the table at the Gazebo, it makes a great manhattan, its a good value.

Many people here don't suffer the neuroses associated with making a bad choice. They can brush off having purchased something that was too expensive, doesn't taste right or even if the cork is hard to pull. MOST CAN"T. They have to make the best decision every time!!!! They pride themselves on never owning a car that was lemon, a toaster that was recalled or seeing a movie that had a bad ending.

Pride and intelligence are inextricably tied to "Good Judgement" in today's society. Heck, we even pride ourselves on voting for the guy who got elected, like that made them a better politician or leader. Wow, the :shithappens: getting pretty deep.

All this MM talk is nothing but posing about being on the winning team.

Some truly independent thinkers take joy in failure and the learnings that come with it.

Its not about winning and losing, being a fan of the championship team or having the car you own be the Motor Trend Car of the Year.

To me, its enough to try it, formulate an opinion and be willing to allow others their opinion.

Nice post Ed.

My Colts lost in the Superbowl. I drive a Pontiac Aztek. I like Maker's Mark. I may not drink it that much anymore, but I'll always have a bottle on the shelf. It was my gateway bourbon, and it's always nice to go home for a visit once in a while. Joe

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It seems that the consensus of opinion is that MM is an OK bourbon. I agree, not my favorite, but I won't refuse a pour (but I usually won't refuse a pour of anything). I actually have a hard time downing ABusch products (I can handle Michelobe, but would prefer a High Life). The St Louis brewery uses a lot of rice in their mash bill. I don't care for Japanese beer for the same reason - I like barley beer. I don't like wheat beer or rice beer. Likewise I like a high rye content in my bourbon. I know there are others who disagree with me. Each to their own. Madison avenue has a lot to do with sales. Marketing is great. I doubt that anyone on this board would agree that JD deserves to be the worlds best selling whiskey, but it is. They are in business to make money, not to satisfy connoisseurs. My 2 cents worth for what it is worth.

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All this MM talk is nothing but posing about being on the winning team.

Having reached the point where you're able to perceive and appreciate the complexity and refinement of a PVW 15 does not constitute "posing".

You're free to call it that. I'm free to say you're wrong.

Wow, the :shithappens: getting pretty deep.

On that we agree.

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It seems that the consensus of opinion is that MM is an OK bourbon. I agree, not my favorite, but I won't refuse a pour (but I usually won't refuse a pour of anything). I actually have a hard time downing ABusch products (I can handle Michelobe, but would prefer a High Life). The St Louis brewery uses a lot of rice in their mash bill. I don't care for Japanese beer for the same reason - I like barley beer.
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