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Before Makers' Mark, it was not OK for bourbon to taste good!


BBQ+Bourbon
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"Our stuff is allright, but you'd be better off buying our competitors product."

Sounds like a winner of an advertising campaign.

Joe - You put into much better words what I was thinking. It seems like people are more upset by the fact that they have had success, and that they personally don't think they are the best, than any huge problem with the product itself.

Sounds to me like they have just had good luck with their marketing schemes. Money well spent.

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You apparently like corn beer. The Milwaukee brewery uses a lot of corn in its mash. AB differs only in the adjunct they use, not the use of an adjunct. The adjuncts add very little if any taste.

A few years ago AB switched Michelob back to an all-barley beer. I haven't tried it since, but I keep meaning to. They did it when they switched back to the lava lamp bottles.

I am unaware of any beer Miller makes that doesn't have corn in it.

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Having reached the point where you're able to perceive and appreciate the complexity and refinement of a PVW 15 does not constitute "posing".

You're free to call it that. I'm free to say you're wrong.

Thanks for that. This meme where preference is automatically tied to ego drives me nuts and has been a fallacy perpetuated many times throughout this thread.

Sometimes preference is derived from research and that's what some consumers do even when the merits of the product in question may be subjective.

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Thanks for that. This meme where preference is automatically tied to ego drives me nuts and has been a fallacy perpetuated many times throughout this thread.

Sometimes preference is derived from research and that's what some consumers do even when the merits of the product in question may be subjective.

I get your second paragraph, but I'm not sure what the first paragraph means. What fallacy has been perpetuated many times? Robert, I ask this in all sincerity, and not as some sort of "bait".

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Gotchya Joe.

My first paragraph was more a reply to what Pepcycle wrote and some other words I've read that seemed to equate the idea of preference with superiority.

Ultimately despite the drift I think this thread was allot of fun especially when it touches on the abstracts of decision making. There are some interesting perspectives here on mechanics even if the choices involved are trivial leisure products.

The Heineken example earlier in this thread reminded me of the episode of Mad Men when they decided to place the beer in end caps and only put it in supermarkets in upper middle class neighborhoods and associate the product with Europe which would lead the women who did most of the shopping to see it as quality and exotic. I'm paraphrasing here but ultimately Don's wife bought it and was pissed when she found out about his campaign thinking Don used her to come up with the campaign, but he just exploited perceptions he observed.

I'm rambling now, so I'll quit.

Pep wrote: "Many people here don't suffer the neuroses associated with making a bad choice. They can brush off having purchased something that was too expensive, doesn't taste right or even if the cork is hard to pull. MOST CAN"T. They have to make the best decision every time!!!! They pride themselves on never owning a car that was lemon, a toaster that was recalled or seeing a movie that had a bad ending."

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To clarify; I did not intend to knock Maker's product. I used to drink a lot of it and to this day I like Makers. I would have a bottle in my cabinet if it were priced closer to the $20 price that I think it deserves.

My bitch is about the comment made in the video. It's insulting to serious bourbon distillers to say that Makers is the first bourbon that made bourbon taste good. And its bullshit.

I could ignore the blatant lies Makers spewed when it claimed to have created wheated bourbon. I understand that their marketing department wants to claim that Makers is the best bourbon ever put in a bottle.

When their master distiller makes such a patently absurd and untrue comment about being the first bourbon that tasted good, I was insulted. Prior to that I had no problem with all the shenanigans of MM's marketing department. I'd still buy it at the $20 or less price the juice deserves.

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Thanks for that. This meme where preference is automatically tied to ego drives me nuts and has been a fallacy perpetuated many times throughout this thread.

I don't think it is a fallacy. If you want examples, visit any enthusiast product or special interest internet forum and just read. I'm sure that you will find many threads where folks will fight tooth and nail to "prove" that the product or service that they chose is the "best" or the market leader overall. I don't care if it is mobile phones or cable/satellite TV or whatever, you will find what I'm talking about. People have their entire being defined by their choices in these forums and are very passionate about it.

Honestly, I find the claims that something is "best" to be juvenile, as what suits my needs may not suit yours and vice versa.

There is no best when opinion is involved.

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I was talking about the idea of determining preference which is different from the idea of best and the two notions do not require linkage. How did we get to best from preference? Because some individuals make the relation between the two absolute does not mean that they have to be.

What I think you meant was that there "is no best for everyone". Well outside of water and air. I think that's pretty much the best for everyone.

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I was talking about the idea of determining preference which is different from the idea of best and the two notions do not require linkage. How did we get to best from preference? Because some individuals make the relation between the two absolute does not mean that they have to be.

What I think you meant was that there "is no best for everyone". Well outside of water and air. I think that's pretty much the best for everyone.

How? Unless one is trolling or is a self denier, they wouldn't select what they thought was the worst, would they?

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How? Unless one is trolling or is a self denier, they wouldn't select what they thought was the worst, would they?

Scott. would you agree that every single person cannot agree on one single product being "the best?" I'm fairly certain that is what Dean meant.

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If you want examples, visit any enthusiast product or special interest internet forum and just read. I'm sure that you will find many threads where folks will fight tooth and nail to "prove" that the product or service that they chose is the "best" or the market leader overall.

To go one further, people often consider it a personal insult when they hear a negative comment about something they like:

"I think the guitar in that latest song by XXX is out of tune, and the vocals are too far down in the mix."

"You're an idiot! I'd like to see you do better!"

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Being the poster boy for this thread ( see www.flipshare.com / Login: crightonspam@gmail.com / Password: Emily [case sensitive]), I just thought I would throw in a few words…..

Marketing

I understand MM makes outrageous claims. As It has been pointed out in other treads that there are other claims made by other distilleries that may stretch the truth a tad. I do not think that making claims of this sort is unique to MM. Marketing s marketing ….. always present your product as superior to the other guy. Making a claim that before Makers' Mark, it was not OK for bourbon to taste good, is an opinion. You have free will to accept it or reject it.

Liking MM

I drink MM as my usual evening drink. Not exclusively …… As those of you have been to my home or kindly invited me to their homes, I am not averse to drinking a wide variety of bourbons. I enjoy the taste of the majority of them and do not care for others. Some of those I do not care for are, are loved by some on this board, but I would never question their opinion or their ability to judge good bourbon. Their preference is different from mine and I respect it.

Buying into the Hype

I collect MM items. I make no apology for this. It is a hobby and I enjoy it. For the most part, the special bottles MM puts out are to benefit some charity. (Talk about marketing!! Sell more product and get great press! Win/Win )

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Making a claim that before Makers' Mark, it was not OK for bourbon to taste good, is an opinion. You have free will to accept it or reject it.

To be an opinion, it should be framed as such otherwise it comes off as a statement of fact (as this does, IMO).

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Scott. would you agree that every single person cannot agree on one single product being "the best?" I'm fairly certain that is what Dean meant.

As I said above, I find the claims that something is "best" to be juvenile (and to expand) an attempt to make one's ability to choose seem superior to others who prefer something else. It is the same personal ego boost that people get by claiming fanship to a particular sports team, etc.

I own the xPhone, your phone sucks.

I drink Pippy Von Schtankle, the crap that you drink is swill.

I drive a Chebby, Furd's are trash.

Etc, etc...

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I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again as an addendum to Dale's comments. In the history of MM advertising, the tone has usually been one of tongue-in-cheek overstatement. Some people don't get the tongue-in-cheek part and, in fairness, there have been times when MM seems to forget it too, and takes itself too seriously. Bill Samuels and I have discussed this and he agrees. As for the tape, I didn't watch it but I've seen Dave do that presentation live. I wasn't offended by it, but he never did pull off the tongue-in-cheek part as well as Bill does.

Especially because I have worked in Marketing, I find personally that the only way to avoid getting worked up by overstated claims is to not take any marketing claims too seriously.

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"I collect MM items. I make no apology for this. It is a hobby and I enjoy it."

That's quite a collection there NeoTexan.

Hell, I'd settle for a Pappy tee shirt.

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Pippy Von Schtankle

This is getting added to my list of favorite whiskeys. :slappin:

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I drink Pippy Von Schtankle, the crap that you drink is swill.

hahahahahaha. i love it!

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Now to finish to my original treatise on making good decisions.

The real point I was trying to make is that no one can be an expert in everything and in order to be prepared for decisions that are not in an area of expertise, its nice to have a "go to" product that you can trust.

I, for one, am not an expert on cheese. I like cheese and often bring it as a guest when I visit. I want to bring something good that shows I'm not a cheese rube. For this role, Cambazola fills the bill. I can thank Jeff for introducing me to this cheese. It gives me that "can't go wrong" feeling when I show up with it.

I think Maker's Mark fills this niche perfectly. Most host would be glad to receive it. It ain't bad, but it ain't Pappy Van Stankle either. Its recognizable as a "premium" brand and has a nice story, even if its not totally true. You can't go wrong, except with a limited population of real bourbon enthusiasts and even then, most would be glad to have a bottle to keep on the bar.

Now, the apologies.

I wasn't trying to imply that everyone on sb.com has no capability to express their free will. On the contrary, many here are "out of the bottle" thinkers and can appreciate a diverse profile of products with an open mind.

I don't believe that most people here are driven by marketing hype when it comes to alcoholic beverages or cars or cheese. I do believe that we all want just a little more info to base our decisions on, something that makes a product unique in some way that we appreciate the difference.

I'm glad that this thread is here. Its a credit to the open discussion and level of respect members have for each other, in spite of broadly varying opinions. I know that I've learned a lot by seeing someone else's point of view.

OH NO. The :shithappens: is getting deep again.

Thanks for having me here.

I'm going see if that old Fiat in the garage will fire up so I can drive it to the mechanic (again)

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So what you are trying to says here is "Makers Mark is cheesy"? :lol:

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