High West 16 yr and 21 yr?

[jmpyle]

I'd also like to add one more thing. Chuck eluded to this, but blending is an art. It's a great art. In fact I'd argue that a blender that batches bourbons is as important as the distiller is. If that person is the same individual - then great.

In the case of David Perkins at High West, not enough credit is being given to him for doing something that I don't believe anyone's done: mating a young, vibrant 6 year old Rye with a 16 year old rye. Brilliant and it worked. And while I don't know the proportions of it, I can promise he didn't go, "A little this, little of that - done". He worked on it.

John Glaser, the very many behind Compass Box that many on this thread have talked about told me in an email that one THE guys blending well in the U.S. is David Perkins. I got the opinion that John considered David a peer in that regard. Admittedly I'm taking liberties with that assumption and don't wish to put word in anyones mouth.

But as you can tell, I'm tired of hearing the beating High West and Perkins are taking for putting a great product on the market. The local ice cream shop makes homemade ice cream. They get their milk form one guy, their fruit from another, their chocolate from another. They don't tell me where they got it from and I'm okay with that.

[cowdery]

I encourage everyone to look at the two web sites and judge for themselves, who is being straight and who is trying to mislead. I just did and it only reinforced my opinion.

I'll also point out that the "WE DIDN"T MAKE THIS STUFF" part of the argument is a lame strawman.

The first things you notice on the Whistle Pig site are statements about WhistlePig Straight Rye Whiskey and then WhistlePig Farm. The High West splash page starts with "The West, Distilled" and "Our Distillery and Saloon."

And to the extent that both do eventually reveal that they did not distill the product they're selling, WhistlePig did that from jump. High West did not. Their initial efforts were much less forthright.

About the only pass I will give Perkins is that, being new to the business, he didn't know how his deception would be received. As an industry veteran, Pickerell knew better.

As this discussion has evolved I have given Perkins his due. Scott Bush (Templeton) on the other hand...

[callmeox]

They don't tell me where they got it from and I'm okay with that.

That's cool, but many (myself included) are not when it comes to American whiskey.

BTW, I cruised by the local homemade ice cream shop the other day and guess what I didn't see? I didn't see a fake dairy farm or artificial fruit trees on the back lot. Without those things present, I safely assumed that they sourced their raw materials elsewhere.

[Josh]

Tom you nailed it. Give me something that tastes great. I ABSOLUTELY want to be told the truth Chuck, but I understand a company not wanting to confuse the public, or hurt their business by blazing a sign on the front of their bottle or website: "WE DIDN"T MAKE THIS STUFF".

That's just silly of anyone to expect that

Yeah, I agree. Distillers shouldn't confuse the public with facts.

[DeanSheen]

In the case of David Perkins at High West, not enough credit is being given to him for doing something that I don't believe anyone's done: mating a young, vibrant 6 year old Rye with a 16 year old rye. Brilliant and it worked. And while I don't know the proportions of it, I can promise he didn't go, "A little this, little of that - done". He worked on it.

So he did brilliant hard work by sourcing and blending 2 ryes? If that's all it takes then I gotta get in the business.

[silverfish]

About the only pass I will give Perkins is that, being new to the business, he didn't know how his deception would be received. As an industry veteran, Pickerell knew better.

Is David Perkins a member here? If not, perhaps if someone pointed him

in our direction, he might be interested in this discussion and be willing

to address some of the concerns.

[T Comp]

Is David Perkins a member here? If not, perhaps if someone pointed him

in our direction, he might be interested in this discussion and be willing

to address some of the concerns.

Hi Gentlemen,

David Perkins from High West. I got a note from someone that said I should weigh in here. Chuck, I don't think its fair to say "As with most things High West does, there is less here than meets the eye." I'm not pretending to be anything than I am not and you don't have to dig at all beyond our back labels and website to determine that. High West is BOTH a distillery and an "independent bottler." We have had a DSP permit and a still for 4 years now. If we didn't distill a whiskey we are selling, we clearly state on all the bottles we sell that we sourced the whiskey from back east while we are waiting for our own whiskey to age. Its as simple as that. We also talk about this on our website and how we were able to get the whiskey - all of it was destined for blending with GNS in well-known blends. Yes (and I know this is frustrating to some), I do not reveal the source of my whiskies as I am bound by contract not to. The makers see this as brand dilution and prefer that the public not know (this happens with excess supplies of name brand California cabernets all the time). And I honor that request. As far as High West and our own distillates, I am very proud of our products. Just as other craft distillers, we have a vodka. I chose oats for ours as I like the taste they impart on a spirit. Our vodka has been highly rated by well known tasters. We are also distilling and aging our own whiskey, several styles in fact. My mentor, Jim Rutledge at Four Roses, is actually the inspiration for why I am independent bottling. First, he impressed on me the need for cash flow. We all get that. Second, it will allow High West to launch our own whiskey after several years of aging rather than being forced to sell whiskey at 1 year or 2 years old. Third, if we do a good job at independent bottling, maybe it will help to build a brand image (or maybe not if Chuck thinks I'm disingenuous!). I consider myself very lucky to have found the whiskies that we now sell. Our 2 best sellers are essentially our own unique "creations", just like what blenders in Scotland produce. Wonderfully, they are also our highest rated whiskies (we were very lucky to get a 95 point rating for Rendezvous and a 90 point rating for Bourye by John Hansell, whom I consider a very hard grader). Rendezvous blends a young whiskey (6 years old) and a very old whiskey (16 years). That's not a very common practice in the US whiskey world (if it is, no one tells you they are blending young and old). Our Bourye was really a fun experiment to see what it would be like to blend a great bourbon and a great rye. I went through 30 different permutations and what I found was stunning to me. Unlike a "high rye" bourbon that has an even spice profile from beginning to end in your mouth, Bourye has a very different taste profile. It actually starts out like a bourbon (not spicy) and only later does the rye spice kick in. I found it delicious and what a great drink to be able to sell. Yes, blending straights is done all the time and I am not responsible for discovering that you can blend straights. One of my favorite "vatted" straights is Woodford Reserve (pot + column still whiskey). We all know Four Roses is essentially 10 bourbons and Jim is able to achieve some amazing combinations by "vatting" (or mingling as he likes to say). What is a big deal to me is that there are no "blended straights" because a single distillery doesn't have to use that terminology.

I hope this clarifies some of the questions in this thread. I can't be all things to all people and no matter what you say or how you say it, there's always going to be imperfect communication. Chuck (or anyone in the thread), if you come to Utah ever, and you should, please let me know and I'll buy you a drink and be your friend.

And I'm to lazy to come up with anything original myself to further this discussion other than another quote from Chuck I'm fond of "but that horse is not just out of the barn, it has died of old age as have all its offspring to seven generations".

[jmpyle]

Josh, poor use of words by me. I suppose what I should have said was, "why would they want to draw attention to the fact that they didn't distill it"?

Dean, start vatting your own grain whiskey at home and figuring out something that works well together that improves as the whole. Then yes, perhaps you can start your own blending business if you get good at it. Give it a go - far more difficult than it sounds.

T Comp - thanks for the repost from David Perkins.

[bourbonNOOG]

It's interesting how these threads take off and sprout in so many different directions. This is why this place is great. I never thought that me asking about High West 16 and 21 would bring up so much underlying animosity, which eventually provoked a response from the owner himself. Simply amazing.

[silverfish]

T Comp - thanks for the repost from David Perkins.

Yes, thanks. I read it and thought "How the hell did I miss that when I

reread the thread?" but it looks like it's from back in Feb. 2010. It was

his seventh and last post to date.

[Leopold]

Dean, start vatting your own grain whiskey at home and figuring out something that works well together that improves as the whole. Then yes, perhaps you can start your own blending business if you get good at it. Give it a go - far more difficult than it sounds.

[jmpyle]

Leopold, I was being 100% serious. I felt he was joking, and my point was to say that absolutely, if you're good at it, start blending and selling it. In fact I'll buy it. I won't care where you get it from either if it's good and you're not blatantly acting like it was distilled in house.

SB readers/contributors are more than capable of doing this - again - that's my point. It's still an art though and that shouldn't be discounted. But it's not easy. Doable - yes, but coming up with a great product, is not easy.

[Josh]

Maybe Gary Gillman (who should be BOTY 2011) should start his own "Micro-distillery". I'd invest in that.

[Leopold]

Chuck hit the nail on the head. I am weary. I bet I have 3 people a week tell me about the great rye made in Utah. I have to go through the whole thing again. And templeton is another.

It doesn't help when people equate blending with fermenting and then distilling.

To cite another example, and this has been famously done before by another magazine, Cooper Spirits, marketers of St. Germain liqueur, just won "Distiller of the Year" from Wine Enthusiast.

Cooper Spirits aren't distillers. And as far as I can tell, they don't even own a blending house where they personally make the liqueur. By all accounts, they're a marketing firm---nice people----but a marketing firm.

[notamormon]

Hi Gentlemen,

David Perkins here. This is certainly a provocative string. Glad to weigh in an add my two cents. I think my lesson learned is that if you don't tell your story, someone else will tell it for you probably without doing their homework and they will jump to conclusions and say unfair things without checking their facts. I'll try not to repeat what I said in the old post T Comp found. There's actually more in that same string where I had to defend myself against Chuck's unfair assertion that High West is a "Potemkin". I love Chuck and his contributions to this under-appreciated industry. I am also learning to not get pissed off at him, to take his good with his bad, and make sure I am proactive as hell in helping him check his facts and remember what he has already written! God bless you Chuck! Just to repeat, High West Distillery has "distillery" in its name because we have been a licensed DSP (distilled spirits plant) since 2006. I have a background in biochemistry and love to cook and embarked on this journey in 2004 when I quit my job working at a biotech company called Genentech. Our first product, like many distilleries, was a vodka that we make from oats. Yes, we distilled it ourselves on our own still that you can see in the pictures on our website. I must confess I am not very passionate about vodka, however, it does make good business sense as it pays the bills. I did get lucky and bought several different stocks of whiskey from 3 different distilleries (not only one in Indiana) because of a wonderful man I was lucky enough to meet - Jim Rutledge from Four Roses. I never once tried to convince anyone that I distilled a 6 and a 16 and a 21 year old whiskey when I've only been in business for 4 years - I don't think anyone is that dumb. I don't have lots of money to buy a PR machine to try and do that either. I am quite proud to have tied for first place in this year's ADI Craft whiskey competition for our very own distillate, an un-aged Oat whiskey. I think Chuck was a judge. Yes, its our own oat whiskey, that we make on our still. High West is aging our own whiskey now and I really look forward to when its "ripe". There was a great blog post not too long ago that commented on young whiskey. Although I respect others that sell it, I don't like young whiskey from small barrels so I won't sell you something I don't like. My back labels and website are clear and they always have been, even before Chuck started his "investigations". I think I covered why I don't list the source of the distillery on the back label elsewhere. If anyone wants to call me personally, I am happy to tell you anything you want to know. Always have been. Just google me. I'm not hard to find.

1) bourbonNOOG: thanks for starting the string. John Hansell has reviewed most all of our whiskies and that could provide a starting point to answer your question "Any one had these offerings?" I know a review is just that, one man's personal opinion, but at least its a starting place. Another great site for reviews if you haven't see it is the Los Angeles Whiskey Society's site. Its well organized and they have tasting notes for alot of whiskey: http://www.lawhiskeysociety.com/

By the way, the 16 year old is one of my favorites just because its so unusual with a very high rye mashbill (80% rye, 10% corn, 10% malt).

2) Tom Mckenzie: We actually have many visitors from NY and I have been proud to tell them to make sure and visit Finger Lakes because I think you make really good stuff. Sorry if I've pissed you off. I'm just trying to make a living and get my distillery up and running just as you are. It won't make me mad if you tell those people I did not distill the ryes in our aged whiskies. I tell them that all the time. Sorry we didn't get to hook up at last year's NY WhiskyFest. I would love to meet you.

3) jmpyle, sailer 22, and sku: thanks for providing another side to the posts rather than the fire from the hip opinion making based on no data other than here-say. Its good to know that some people at least review things more thoroughly like back labels and websites. Sailer 22, I am very honored to even be mentioned in the same sentence as John Glaser. I consider him a friend and think he makes great whiskey as well.

4) DeenSheen and Leopold: you are right, blending isn't that hard. In fact its fun and easy as you can just go to your backbar. What is hard is all the other stuff just to get you to that point: finding the whiskey, finding someone willing to sell you that whiskey, building the place to blend and bottle the whiskey (with explosion proof electrics etc), and then the hardest part is hoping you create something that someone will buy! I was told by many when I bought the whiskies I did that I was going to loose my shirt because "no-one drinks rye whiskey". This was eight years ago. It all seems so obvious now. I do encourage you to do some blending. When I started this, I never really liked any blended whiskey and felt the same way as you all do. Now I am very impressed that the master scotch blenders can do what they do with constantly changing whiskey stocks. I was also amazed what a 1% change in a formula would do to the end product. Finally, I've developed my palate much more based on working on the blends.

5) Chuck: I thought we have already dealt with most of these things. Especially, after meeting you in person at Chicago WhiskeyFest last Spring and discussing many of these topics, I thought we had made up and become friends. At least that's how I felt. I must admit I am a bit surprised and saddened that you continue on with some troubling and downright mean statements. But you are going to be who you are and all I can do is state the facts, sometimes after one of your posts comes out. A few comments:

- "With Whistlepig I learned about it directly from Dave Pickerell, who I know well, who immediately told me it was sourced and not made by them. In fact he is rather proud of finding it, as well he should be." If you had called me directly or read my labels or read my website, you would have "learned" the same thing. I can't be held responsible for your poor investigation, especially when the facts were out there. I too am "proud" of the whiskey we sourced as the companies that made them never thought they could sell them and make money.

- "With High West the first I heard was emails from people asking me "about this new rye made in Utah." When I investigated all I found were a bunch of press pieces, obviously placed by a PR effort, all of which at a minimum implied that the whiskey was made at the distillery in Utah. High West clearly had made no effort to discourage that impression." Actually, it was you that made no effort to get the facts before writing something that was not correct. The "impression" was correct on our labels and website from the get go. And our "obvious" PR machine was non-existant; unfortunately, people's "investigations", including your own, were not very thorough.

- "they [High West] also offered the unlikely (and so far unfulfilled) promise that it was only a temporary expedient. Although they are now selling products they made themselves, they have not and never will replace any of their sourced products with house-made products." You are absolutely correct in stating the obvious: we will never "replace" a specific product we sourced from another distillery with a product we made ourselves. Thats just downright impossible.

- "Perkins has...put some house-made products on the market, though they are nothing like the products he sourced, and those are what he prefers to talk about." You are correct, the products we are distilling ourselves are "nothing" like the products we have sourced. That's impossible too. Not sure how you know what I "prefer" to talk about. I love all of our products and talk about anything anyone wants me to talk about. Did I mention our un-aged Oat whiskey that tied for first at the recent ADI Craft Whiskey Competition? I "talk" about it all the time.

Well I hope that helps a little bit. I still like Chuck and will continue to help him with the facts when he needs the help. My e-mail is david@highwest.com. Glad to answer any more questions.

[jmpyle]

Well there ya go. Thanks for chiming in David.

[Leopold]

4) DeenSheen and Leopold: you are right, blending isn't that hard. In fact its fun and easy as you can just go to your backbar. What is hard is all the other stuff just to get you to that point: finding the whiskey, finding someone willing to sell you that whiskey, building the place to blend and bottle the whiskey (with explosion proof electrics etc), and then the hardest part is hoping you create something that someone will buy! I was told by many when I bought the whiskies I did that I was going to loose my shirt because "no-one drinks rye whiskey". This was eight years ago. It all seems so obvious now. I do encourage you to do some blending. When I started this, I never really liked any blended whiskey and felt the same way as you all do. Now I am very impressed that the master scotch blenders can do what they do with constantly changing whiskey stocks. I was also amazed what a 1% change in a formula would do to the end product. Finally, I've developed my palate much more based on working on the blends.

I've already blended spirits professionally. Long before you even thought about getting into this business. I certainly wouldn't claim how easy it is if I hadn't done it myself. All you need, as you pointed out, are contacts. Do you think it's an accident that John Glaser was the Global Marketing Director for the largest whiskey blender in the world? How big do you suppose his Rolodex is? He's not just some guy who fell of a turnip truck.

Rye whiskey was already hot (on a small scale, that is) long before you received your first COLA for Rendevous in 2007.

For the record, I don't have any issues with what you're doing. I make it a point to never tell a man how to run his business.

And if you haven't already figured this out, a single 250 gallon still isn't going to allow you to distill an appreciable amount of whiskey. Certainly not enough to fill those massive blending tanks that you have pictured on your website. If you don't mind me asking, are you planning on blending your own new make with the whiskey you're purchasing? Or will the whiskey you distill stand on its own?

Best of luck with your company!

[cowdery]

"The (man) doth protest too much, methinks."

[notamormon]

aw Chuck, I didn't mean it all. I have a head cold and was ornery all day yesterday. I even snapped at my wife! Teaches me to post a blog when I'm not smiling, which I usually am. Utah really is that much fun. Can I send a sample of our aged malt whiskey just for fun?

[ErichPryde]

I actually just bought a bottle of Rendevous Rye yesterday. Although the bottle says "distillery" on it, it also clearly states that it was bottled by high west. Nowhere on the label does it say "distilled. The average consumer who knows nothing about whiskey will believe whatever they will believe- and that's if they even bother to read the label.

Why is it that High West is such a big deal, yet other producers can get away with having Old Prentice distillery and Evan Williams distillery written on their bottles? I understand that KBD has generated some negative feedback as well, but seriously?

Chuck, I like most of what you write. It's great that you're on a crusade to save the people who can't read from poisoning their body with something that you feel is labeled misleadingly. But I've got to wonder, who are you really writing to? Most people who can't be bothered to read the label and infer some sort of meaning from it probably also aren't reading your blog, or even your posts here. I've read what you've had to say about people like KBD and the Van Winkles, but you seem to have a special place in your heart for High West. If they were blending 8 and 12 year old wheaters and the end result tasted exactly like VOF and the bottle was labeled exactly how it is now, would you be this upset?

Really the problem is that you met a couple of people who couldn't have been bothered to read the label which is very, very clear on whether or not the whiskey inside is their own distillate, and what they had to say pissed you off. That, and because HW is distilling something other than whiskey, they shouldn't be able to put distillery on their label? You call for them to put "rectifier" on the labeling as well in another thread. I don't hear you calling on every single distillery, all of which practice blending, to also place "rectifier" on their bottles?

David, mad props for blending and bottling a damn fine rye whiskey. There is not enough rye on the market let alone good rye, and I appreciate what you're doing out there more than I can possibly say. Rendevous is good stuff. I think Van Winkle Rye might have you on the nose, but you've got van winkle on the taste. My only complaint is that you're not bottling at 100-107 proof, which is where I really, really like my whiskey. But I guess I can't complain too much, You left it at 46, which is a definitely a competitive proof point. 90 is about as low a proof as I can stand to drink these days.

[macdeffe]

I got aware of HW a few months ago via a photo I got mailed from an American friend

He recommeneded it, and I started some online research, after 2 minutes I realised it was a bottler to become a distiller, so I can't really see what the fuss is about. You won't really find anyone who know less about American Whiskey on this forum, at least not ½ a year ago

I am a lot more confused by loads of Kentucky bourbons with not existing distilleries on their labels as mentioned by Erich Pryde

Just this weekend I had whisky labeled Old Fitzgerald distillery

When I was making my google maps with american distilleries I had Charles medley plotted. When you visit their webpage its very hard to see they apparently don't have a distillery up and running

So I don't see the fuss about HW, when the business is very confusing as a newcomer (I am just too used to reading scottish labels yes)

I would point fingers other places instead!

Steffen

[mgilbertva]

I'm very sympathetic to Chuck's quest to reform the bourbon industry, to get them to provide accurate information on their labels. When Mr. Perkins says "several different stocks of whiskey from 3 different distilleries (not only one in Indiana)" I would like to know which distilleries and what mash bill, etc. Like others, I wish we had at least the level of honesty (such as it is) in labeling that scotch drinkers enjoy.

I also understand there may be legal and marketing reasons for not releasing that information. What I want to see as a bourbon enthusiast may not match what the non-enthusiast responds to. Still, I cheer Chuck on when he goes on one of his so-called "rants."

The most important question, however, has been asked: Is this whiskey good? The answer is an unqualified YES! I love the Rendezvous Rye and Boureye. Life is better because those whiskeys are on the market. So for that, thanks David!

[nor02lei]

I also understand there may be legal and marketing reasons for not releasing that information. !

I don’t believe one word of that Mark. Cadenheads from Scotland (and other Eourupe bottlers) bottle uncut HH and BT and they always put out distillery information on the label. BIB bottles do have DSP on the label in USA due to law, but not in Europe where there is no such law.

I’m sure it is just an ill will to put out accurate information on the label. I cant for my life figure out the reason though. The only thing I can come up with is custom and tradition based on old labels I see all the time on E-bay and other auctions.

important question, however, has been asked: Is this whiskey good? The answer is an unqualified YES! I love the Rendezvous Rye and Boureye. Life is better because those whiskeys are on the market. So for that, thanks David!

I agree 100 % and my 2 favourites are the same as yours Mark.

[Josh]

Chuck's series of posts on HW:

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-is-this-stuff-really.html

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2008/01/high-west-checks-in.html

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2010/05/2010-adi-best-craft-american-whiskey.html

Rereading these helped me put the whole thing in context.

I agree with everyone that the "Doing Business As..." names on the labels are annoying and deceptive. There IS a difference tho, between BT putting Old Charter Distilling Co. on the back of a bottle of OC and a non-distiller claiming to be a distiller. Eagle Rare is even more confusing, since BT still uses the Old Prentice name on the back, and the Old Prentice Distillery is a the former name of Four Roses.

At any rate, BT does actually distill whiskey, they're just using a historical name rather than their actual current name. When I enter "Old Charter Distillery" into Google the fourth link down tells me that Old Charter is actually distilled by BT. For "Old Prentice Distillery", the second and fourth links down tell me that the name is actually used by BT. At any rate, Buffalo Trace does distill product. So referring to themselves as distillers is the accurate, even if the names are a bit confusing.

Kentucky Bourbon Distillers doesn't distill anything, and probably won't any time soon. But they call themselves distillers. That is MORE deceptive than just using a different name on a bottle. The very name of the company is deceptive. It's as if a used car dealership called itself "Crazy Ed's Auto Manufacturers". Plus KBD's management publicly attacks people (including everybody on this website) who dare to ask or even speculate on where it comes from. And when confronted they hide behind phoney non-disclosure agreements that only seem to apply to KBD and other companies trying to pass themselves off as distillers, but not any other companies that buy whiskey from the same distillers (e.g. Luxco, Jefferson's, Van Winkle).

At any rate, the problem is that some bottlers and blenders are using the title of micro-distillers and competing with actual micro-distillers on an uneven footing. A micro that has been operating for 2-4 yrs and aging their own stuff can't compete with an alleged micro that has been buying whiskey that is 5-8x older from LDI, B-F, HH or somewhere else.

High West, if they were being deceptive at one time, no longer are being deceptive as far as I can tell. The even have some distilled product on the market. Their blended and bottled stuff is very tasty and well-done. I recently split a bottle of Bourye with a friend, and I like it a lot. Templeton has come clean, Tipton in Indiana is being honest about the source of their bourbon right out of the box. I'm glad that there are folks who are pressing these companies to be open about what they are really doing.

[ErichPryde]

Well said Josh. I have to agree with you.