Mixing PVW15 with VWFRR

[Rockefeller]

Recently read a review of PVW15 on that other bourbon forum, and someone recommended making a 50/50 pour of PVW15 and VWFRR (supposedly it's amazing). I'm guessing there are a few who might think that this would be bastardizing a master creation, but there's no reason to think that a master blender couldn't create a fine dram out of various bourbons much like a vatted malt scotch.

Has anyone done this? In general, have you tried mixing your various bourbons to create a bourbon blend?

[JayMonster]

Do a search for Vatting because there are a number of threads on the subject. Our Master Vatter Gillman is such a proponent, Cowdry went ahead and coined the phrase "Gillmanization" to the process of mingling Bourbons.

The most recent discussion on it would be here:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16181&highlight=vatting

[Tico]

Haven't tried this particular blend but it sounds interesting enough to try. I've got both open at the moment and will get around to it this weekend. I've also played with a 50/50 of PVW 15 & PVW 20. It's interesting but I think I like them for their own qualities.

[tigerlam92]

I could see mixing certain bourbon to combine certain profile that you like and dilute out some profile that you don't. What is it that you are hoping to get by combining this two fine and different profiles. Or how did you think the outcome was?

The great thing is that bourbon is very personal so if this work better than them individually, that is great.

cheers

--Hugh

[Gillman]

IIRC, I haven't tried this particular vatting, but I've done others on similar lines. The concept makes sense as I see it. With a wheater, especially a rich smooth one with good age on it, sometimes I want it spicier. By adding a rye-recipe bourbon or a rye whiskey, it's kind of adding rye to the mash of the wheater, it makes it a four-grain. Since rye whiskey is rye-heavy to begin with, a 50/50 blending of two products of similar age range makes a bourbon so to speak. If the rye had 51% rye content, you have cut that small grain in half and it becomes similar to the mash of many bourbons. The wheat stays in the background to add further complexity and interest.

So the rationale would be to "make" a rye-recipe bourbon of well-aged character (well, a four-grain, but essentially a rye-recipe bourbon as I see it given wheat's relatively subtle effects in a whiskey mash).

The resultant taste will of course appeal to some but not all, given too that you are blending products from different distilleries whose methods and yeasts were different. But I find often you can get a good taste in doing this. I started by doing it in the glass with small amounts, you don't lose much if it doesn't work out, but it almost always works out for me. E.g. if the tastes are too muddled, I just add more of one or the other, or a different whiskey, until the taste picture becomes more "what it should be", unified and in focus.

If anything, given that straight whiskeys are more similar in character than many malts, the logic seems better for them than for the malt whisky world, but the practice is not widely used in the industry today. But it was at one time, when blending was an art and non-distilling merchants and grocers specialised in making their own unique blends and vattings (i.e., sometimes grain neutral spirits were added but not always, the best blends eschewed them).

It's really a revival of an old American practice and quite intuitive, nothing is unique or original about it!

Gary

[JayMonster]

IIRC, I haven't tried this particular vatting, but I've done others on similar lines. The concept makes sense as I see it. With a wheater, especially a rich smooth one with good age on it, sometimes I want it spicier. By adding a rye-recipe bourbon or a rye whiskey, it's kind of adding rye to the mash of the wheater, it makes it a four-grain. Since rye whiskey is rye-heavy to begin with, a 50/50 blending of two products of similar age range makes a bourbon so to speak. If the rye had 51% rye content, you have cut that small grain in half and it becomes similar to the mash of many bourbons. The wheat stays in the background to add further complexity and interest.

So the rationale would be to "make" a rye-recipe bourbon of well-aged character (well, a four-grain, but essentially a rye-recipe bourbon as I see it given wheat's relatively subtle effects in a whiskey mash).

The resultant taste will of course appeal to some but not all, given too that you are blending products from different distilleries whose methods and yeasts were different. But I find often you can get a good taste in doing this. I started by doing it in the glass with small amounts, you don't lose much if it doesn't work out, but it almost always works out for me. E.g. if the tastes are too muddled, I just add more of one or the other, or a different whiskey, until the taste picture becomes more "what it should be", unified and in focus.

If anything, given that straight whiskeys are more similar in character than many malts, the logic seems better for them than for the malt whisky world, but the practice is not widely used in the industry today. But it was at one time, when blending was an art and non-distilling merchants and grocers specialised in making their own unique blends and vattings (i.e., sometimes grain neutral spirits were added but not always, the best blends eschewed them). It's really a revival of an old American practice and quite intuitive, nothing is unique or original about it!

Gary

And THIS ia why I call him the "Master Vatter!"

[Gillman]

Thanks Jay!

Small correction: 51% rye in a rye whiskey isn't a small grain of course, but I meant that when reduced to 25.5% rye in the vatting, it becomes a rye small grain.

Gary

[BFerguson]

And THIS ia why I call him the "Master Vatter!"

Yes, but the moniker being the "Mad Vatter", just has a nicer ring to it.

B

[Restaurant man]

You guys shouldn't be playing around with this stuff. I can't elaborate right now but consider yourself warned! Those meddling kids are watching :hot:

[LikeItWasSodaPop]

What I love about Gary is that he thinks about a submitted idea thoroughly and can so deeply and carefully consider the potential ramifications of said idea and above all else, consider an idea that others (me) might just dismiss outright.

That said, this vatting seems questionable to me. Gary's laid out the reasons why similar vattings could work, mashbill-wise on a very theoretical level. But this vatting just sounds wrong to me, prima facie.

We are starting with, I think it's safe to say, two superlative whiskies. And so it's just like, uh, really? I mean, I love you Gary, you're pretty much the smartest dude on this forum and I appreciate your willingness to dig into the intellectual question presented by the OP, by which I mean, you're basically answering a totally different question entirely, which is: under which circumstances can or should one vat a wheated bourbon and a rye whiskey? But, and I say this with much love, Gary, your totally awesome and really thought-provoking post totally ignores the question presented.

It is totally stupid to vat VWFRR and PVW15. Some brohemian bro got schwasted and thought, "Let's mix some Van Winkle products in the manner in which I mix Irish Car Bombs and Jager Bombs. Because Van Winkle + Van Winkle must a brilliant mixologist make me."

I've now tried them in all sorts of proportions. I've even tried it with some SW Lot B subbed for the Pappy 15 because the proof is closer. I've tried more rye vs more PVW 15, and yes, oh yes, I've tried it with 09 PVW 15 and with 11-12 PVW 15. Granted, I have tried these vattings in very small proportions, because I wasn't expecting much.

And guess what? There is no magic confluence.

And yeah, I could experiment further (I tried about 12 different possibilities with 2 different open VWFRR (09 bottling vs 11 bottling) and 2 different PVW 15 (09 vs 11).

My conclusion is that the person (not the OP!) that is claiming some magic synergy between these two whiskies shares the same soul as the person who encourages people to make Pappy 15 Old Fashioneds or VWFRR Sazeracs. Kids, you can't taste the glory of these wonderful whiskies in these cocktails. Ya can't. These great whiskies are wasted in cocktails. But are they wasted in vattings?

And so I want to ask Gary a question, because I think it's an important one. Gary, do you think that vatting is (or should be):

(1) Something that helps lesser whiskies become greater than the sum of their parts?

(2) A way of making lesser whiskies greater than the sum of their parts by using small amounts of good whiskey to mask the flaws of lesser whiskies?

(3) A way to experiment and make unique whiskies that couldn't exist otherwise (duh).

(4) A way to make better whiskey, period.

(5, 6, 7, 8, etc.) That which I have not been smart enough to suggest.

In the end, Gary's noble/brilliant thoughts aside, I just can't find a sweet spot mixing these two amazing whiskies (PVW 15 and VWFRR), and quite frankly, I feel dumb for even trying because my gut instinct was that this was a dumb idea.

And my gut instinct didn't flow from a subtle and reasoned consideration of the interaction of the whiskies (because I'm not (yet) capable of thinking like Gary does). It came from my lizard brain trying to f'ing stop me from putting these two together, i.e., something deep in my subconscious saying: "Are you fucking crazy?" I mean, my ARM resisted the pour, saying: "Sorry dude, can't let you waste this VWFRR in this base and thoughtless manner."

Drink these on their own. Unless someone (Gary?) can come up with a lot specific ratio (i.e. which era/lot VWFRR pairs best with which era/lot PVW 15), in which case I will immediately rescind this post.

In all seriousness, GG, in what (if any) way/manner does quality/rarity/uniqueness play into your vatting philosophy? This is alchemy, is it not, so isn't part of the joy making the whole greater than the sum of its parts? In that sense, wouldn't one use something magnificent, like VWFRR, sparingly, not as a major component in a vatting and certainly not 50/50? Or is it possible to make successful vattings that combine multiple blockbusters in this manner? Are there any examples of vattings like this -- not ones that combine wheaters + ryes, but ones that combine only whiskies that are universally considered to be superlative on their own, and don't involve "lesser" product(s) at all?

[Gillman]

It just seemed logical to me from seeing how the mashbill itself works, which is a combination of grains. And from reading the history of American whiskey as I've understood it, and looking at malt whisky history. I never said it was for everyone, and it's worked for me and some others found it of interest. Many fellow SB-ers never go there, and that's fine. It's just another approach and one I've found of interest in terms of results and I've only sought to explain my views on it. As said earlier too, I cant recall ever trying that particular vatting, I was projecting what might occur if I did, based on similar things I've tried. I can fully understand why many people don't what to bother with it.

Gary

[JayMonster]

under which circumstances can or should one vat a wheated bourbon and a rye whiskey?

Whenever a person has a desire to try it. There is no single right answer.

My conclusion is that the person (not the OP!) that is claiming some magic synergy between these two whiskies shares the same soul as the person who encourages people to make Pappy 15 Old Fashioneds or VWFRR Sazeracs. Kids, you can't taste the glory of these wonderful whiskies in these cocktails. Ya can't. These great whiskies are wasted in cocktails.

There are those that believe you can't make anything... even an Old Fashioned, or a Manhattan with inferior ingredients. Period.

If you can afford it, and have access to the whiskey... and if you want the "very best" Old Fashioned, you can't make it from an inferior whiskey.

I get it, from your perspective, you say, "How could you waste your whiskey in a mixer. But, stop and look at it from the opposite side, where a person thinks, how can you take a drink that is designed to highlight the flavors of the whiskey, and make it with some awful swill of a whiskey. It is all about perspective.

But are they wasted in vattings?

It may be a "waste" if the blend doesn't work out to your satisfaction, but with vatting, it is more about the experimentation and experience, isn't it? About discovering just the right blend? The fun is in the journey.

And so I want to ask Gary a question, because I think it's an important one. Gary, do you think that vatting is (or should be):

(1) Something that helps lesser whiskies become greater than the sum of their parts?

(2) A way of making lesser whiskies greater than the sum of their parts by using small amounts of good whiskey to mask the flaws of lesser whiskies?

(3) A way to experiment and make unique whiskies that couldn't exist otherwise (duh).

(4) A way to make better whiskey, period.

(5, 6, 7, 8, etc.) That which I have not been smart enough to suggest.

Same rules apply here as in using it for a mixer. You can make a bad whiskey tolerable, or even good by blending it with something else, but you can't make a great vatting with mediocre whiskey. There is certainly less "risk" involved in blending lesser whiskies, because the cost is less, or because you are not particularly enjoying them in their present form, but as is usually the case, less risk means less reward.

I just can't find a sweet spot mixing these two amazing whiskies (PVW 15 and VWFRR), and quite frankly, I feel dumb for even trying because my gut instinct was that this was a dumb idea.

"I haven't failed, I have discovered 10,000 way that do not work" - Thomas Edison.

Whether it is a matter of cost, a matter of time, or something else, there is nothing dumb about experimentation. OK, for you, it did not work out the way you wanted, but there is nothing dumb about discovering the new.

Drink these on their own. Unless someone (Gary?) can come up with a lot specific ratio (i.e. which era/lot VWFRR pairs best with which era/lot PVW 15), in which case I will immediately rescind this post.

That is fine, but if NOBODY tries things because they are "dumb" then who is going to provide the right ratios?

In all seriousness, GG, in what (if any) way/manner does quality/rarity/uniqueness play into your vatting philosophy? This is alchemy, is it not, so isn't part of the joy making the whole greater than the sum of its parts? In that sense, wouldn't one use something magnificent, like VWFRR, sparingly, not as a major component in a vatting and certainly not 50/50? Or is it possible to make successful vattings that combine multiple blockbusters in this manner? Are there any examples of vattings like this -- not ones that combine wheaters + ryes, but ones that combine only whiskies that are universally considered to be superlative on their own, and don't involve "lesser" product(s) at all?

I can't give you a bourbon example, but look at The Dalmore. They have a number of blends that are made up of multiple exquisite, rare and highly expensive whiskey barrels made into a single blend that fetched thousands of dollars per bottle.

Talisker makes a great Single Malt Scotch, yet is also sold as part of a blend for other Blended Scotch Whiskies.

Really, it is all up to your tastes. Just because something is excellent on its own, doesn't mean it can't be part of something better. But I guess you are right, if you are not willing to take the risks of finding the wrong combinations on the way to the right one, then perhaps you are better sitting back and waiting for somebody else to discover it. But that still doesn't make it wrong for others to do. (and certainly isn't a "wrong" or "dumb" thing to do.

[JayMonster]

For the record... that last post came off far more preachy than intended.

My point was simply, if you like it, and have the means (both financially and the ability to acquire the product), then why not? There are no rules that say you can't mix good products in the hopes of making a better one.

[Bmac]

@Likeitwassodapop - I may have missed this in your post, but there is a factor you must take into account before you dismiss vatting bourbons, whiskeys, etc.

Time to marry. When you mix the two or more whiskeys the various particles that make up the flavors get agitated. It takes time for them to "settle down" before you try to drink them. If you had just poured the mix and tried it, it wont taste good. Let it sit a week, try it again. I experimented with several vattings (mostly medium end stuff) and figured out the formula of how vatting works. I have a vatting of a wheated mix that you'd sear was older VW, yet it has NO VW whiskey in it.

I wouldnt dismiss it completely, that's all I am saying

[Jonny.Applebury]

I experimented with several vattings (mostly medium end stuff) and figured out the formula of how vatting works. I have a vatting of a wheated mix that you'd sear was older VW, yet it has NO VW whiskey in it.

Will you share which whiskeys and the proportions? How long did you let it marry? I'd like to try this and compare it to some Pappy Van Winkle 20 year old.

[peterlake]

"A lot of people treat the addition of anything to bourbon or good single-malt scotch like treason. They treat bourbon like this virgin substance that you don't want to mess with. That's a mistake. When you dilute the whiskey just a little bit-not too much-you open the door to hundreds of new flavors."

- Julian Van Winkle

He's not talking about vatting specifically, but it seemed relevant. I'm quoting this from his intro to a recipe for an Old Fashioned in the Fall/Winter Issue of Lucky Peach.

[Bmac]

Will you share which whiskeys and the proportions? How long did you let it marry? I'd like to try this and compare it to some Pappy Van Winkle 20 year old.

I can try. It's a rather long list and it takes about 2 weeks to marry

[Bmac]

OK. Please no hating on me. It was just an experiment to attempt to get a mix that matched PVW15.

Mixed in a 350Ml bottle:

• 4 ounces - Rebel Reserve (this is the young whiskey base for the core. It sucks @$$ on it's own but I wanted some heavy vanilla-like sweetness. Plus...I just wanted to get rid of it.)
  
• 2 ounces - Berheim Original Wheat (I know, by adding this it's no longer a bourbon per se.)
  
• 1.5 ounces - Old Weller Antique NAS
  
• 2 ounces - W.L. Weller 12
  
• 2 ounces - William Larue Weller 2010
  
• 2 ounces - Jefferson Presidential Select Batch #25
  
• 1.5 ounces - Vintage Bourbon 17
  
• .5 ounce of reverse osmosis filtered water.

I let that sit for two weeks. One of the most complex and delicious noses erupts out of this. I realize by adding the JPS that it was the catalyst that brought the PVW15 profile because it's SW. The combination of 18yr and 17yr wheat balance out the younger whiskeys and the 12yr provides a bit of oakiness and the WLW provides a rich toffee mouth-feel as well as heightens the proof. Together you get caramel, vanilla sweetness with a hint of oak and a very long chewy finish. I have a bottle of 08' PVW to compare to and on the nose it's very very close. The flavor of my mix matches PVW15 on the arrival but mine excels mid palate with a bit more complexity but the two finishes are very different. I admit the PVW15 wins on the finish.

I expect the backlash on me to be harsh...but there it is. If you're in the camp that says "I don't care as long as it tastes good" you'd be very happy with this

[Brisko]

I expect the backlash on me to be harsh...but there it is. If you're in the camp that says "I don't care as long as it tastes good" you'd be very happy with this

Are you kidding? That's a brilliant vatting and well thought-out, in my opinion. Old Fitz BiB might work in place of the Rebel Reserve, too, and give you a little more proof at the same time.

[Jonny.Applebury]

OK. Please no hating on me. It was just an experiment to attempt to get a mix that matched PVW15.

Mixed in a 350Ml bottle:

• 4 ounces - Rebel Reserve (this is the young whiskey base for the core. It sucks @$$ on it's own but I wanted some heavy vanilla-like sweetness. Plus...I just wanted to get rid of it.)
  
• 2 ounces - Berheim Original Wheat (I know, by adding this it's no longer a bourbon per se.)
  
• 1.5 ounces - Old Weller Antique NAS
  
• 2 ounces - W.L. Weller 12
  
• 2 ounces - William Larue Weller 2010
  
• 2 ounces - Jefferson Presidential Select Batch #25
  
• 1.5 ounces - Vintage Bourbon 17
  
• .5 ounce of reverse osmosis filtered water.

I let that sit for two weeks. One of the most complex and delicious noses erupts out of this. I realize by adding the JPS that it was the catalyst that brought the PVW15 profile because it's SW. The combination of 18yr and 17yr wheat balance out the younger whiskeys and the 12yr provides a bit of oakiness and the WLW provides a rich toffee mouth-feel as well as heightens the proof. Together you get caramel, vanilla sweetness with a hint of oak and a very long chewy finish. I have a bottle of 08' PVW to compare to and on the nose it's very very close. The flavor of my mix matches PVW15 on the arrival but mine excels mid palate with a bit more complexity but the two finishes are very different. I admit the PVW15 wins on the finish.

I expect the backlash on me to be harsh...but there it is. If you're in the camp that says "I don't care as long as it tastes good" you'd be very happy with this

I have everything on this list, and nearly all of it is open. What luck! I'm going to try this after I get back from Scotland. Otherwise, it'd be marrying for about 6 weeks! :shocked:

Thanks very much for sharing!

[Gillman]

It sounds great and the method is very interesting. There are many ways to approach blending straight whiskeys, and a precise approach where the amounts are recorded permits not just repetition by others (assuming the whiskeys are available to them, but some will substitute similar ones) but shows the "inner workings".

Gary

[mosugoji64]

OK. Please no hating on me. It was just an experiment to attempt to get a mix that matched PVW15.

Hating? Whatever, man. You deserve a bowdown for that level of mad-scientist creativity! :bowdown:

Now if I could just convince my wife that I NEED to go purchase a few of those for my own experiment!

[Bmac]

I have everything on this list, and nearly all of it is open. What luck! I'm going to try this after I get back from Scotland. Otherwise, it'd be marrying for about 6 weeks! :shocked:

Thanks very much for sharing!

Wow! That is a stroke of luck O_O. Be sure that Vintage Bourbon 17 is the wheated release

[Bmac]

Are you kidding? That's a brilliant vatting and well thought-out, in my opinion. Old Fitz BiB might work in place of the Rebel Reserve, too, and give you a little more proof at the same time.

LOL my track record is sketchy

[Bmac]

Hating? Whatever, man. You deserve a bowdown for that level of mad-scientist creativity! :bowdown:

Now if I could just convince my wife that I NEED to go purchase a few of those for my own experiment!

O_________O thanks :blush: