Mixing PVW15 with VWFRR

[speedbump47]

You tempted me enough to go out and buy Rebel Reserve (which I did not realize was different and more "upscale" than Yell) and Bernheim. I mixed that with 2011 WLW, JPRS 18 yr (non-chill filtered) from a K&L bottling, and the remainder of ingredients.

I halved your recipe amounts, but now I can't wait for 2 weeks to roll by! Should have kept it the same amounts and just started "sampling" earlier :grin:

[Bmac]

You tempted me enough to go out and buy Rebel Reserve (which I did not realize was different and more "upscale" than Yell) and Bernheim. I mixed that with 2011 WLW, JPRS 18 yr (non-chill filtered) from a K&L bottling, and the remainder of ingredients.

I halved your recipe amounts, but now I can't wait for 2 weeks to roll by! Should have kept it the same amounts and just started "sampling" earlier :grin:

What I do is smell the sample each day to see how it's forming. It evolves over time. I found 1 - 2 weeks is best. My batch two weeks to.really develop. I am interested to hear how yours turns out

[speedbump47]

What I do is smell the sample each day to see how it's forming. It evolves over time. I found 1 - 2 weeks is best. My batch two weeks to.really develop. I am interested to hear how yours turns out

I'll definitely let you (and the group) know. Sadly, I don't have a pre-BT PVW15 to compare against, but I can at least comment on whether it tastes good to me or not.

At worst, I bought a Rebel Reserve I wouldn't have otherwise (Bernheim was on the short-list of next things to try). But it also got me in the spirit of vatting....I had put aside a 50/50 mix of VWFRR and PVW15 2 days ago, and added a splash of WLW to it yesterday...the nose on it this morning was amazing!

[Gillman]

I swirl my vats well in the glass, or shake them up in a bottle, and they seem well-homogenised, but standing makes them even better, no question. (In fact a tequila blend I made seemed a little pallid just by virtue of standing: I've added more oomph to it since in the form of some Herradura).

Here is an example of a 1930's approach to blending straights, essentially what we are discussing now. I've posted this kind of historical material before, but a number of members interested in blending joined after, I believe:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=AEoEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA105&dq=life+magazine+%2B+a+blend+of+straight+whiskeys&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pXyHT6yEPKS08AG_v8S3CA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&

Gary

[speedbump47]

Gary,

Could I trouble you for the page number in that magazine? I skimmed and nothing jumped out at me. Thanks for linking regardless....I had no idea they had a repository of old magazines like that. It's like a time capsule....

[Gillman]

Yes sure it's pg. 105, the ad for Golden Wedding.

Gary

[speedbump47]

Yes sure it's pg. 105, the ad for Golden Wedding.

Gary

Thanks. I find it somewhat humorous that it's 86% comprised of 4 yr. olds, and has 1% 11 yr and 2% 6 yr. in the mix.

That's akin to the (now debunked) speculation that current PVW 20 might just have a slight amount of SW juice in it.

[Gillman]

The Golden Wedding formula circa-1940 for its blend of straight bourbons or ryes was just one company's approach to producing a pleasing and (no doubt) consistent product. The whole thing was palate-driven, I'm sure, in that they must have felt the admittedly very small amounts of older whiskey did something particular for the blend.

1800's blending manuals sometimes blended three or four straights, sometimes more or less equally, and sometimes with GNS, or not. IIRC, formuals that blended rye and bourbon called for much less rye than bourbon, probably due to the more assertive taste of rye. Using a little amount of well-aged bourbon vs. mostly younger ones is kind of a parallel idea.

There were many approaches, and probably lore was built up in different places how best to do it. It is true of course that ultimately, blended whiskey was restricted largely to combinations of straights and GNS or green whiskey and flavoring, i.e., for your typical American blended whiskey of today. Perhaps once there was enough straight whiskey post-Prohibition that was well-aged, they didn't feel the need to combine whiskeys (except to make large batches where you combine whiskeys of the same recipe) to get a consistent palate. But this doesn't mean that people still can't try it at home in a way similar to making a cocktail, and I believe you can get subtle and interesting results no bottle of straight whiskey has on its own. It's not better though, just different, an additional range of tastes you can do from one set of whiskeys in your bunker (rather than continually buying new ones).

Gary

[CorvallisCracker]

I tried this and got PVVWW1R5R. I tried it again and got FWVWP15RRV. The possibilities are endless.

Well, not endless. 453,600 to be exact. But that's a lot.

[CorvallisCracker]

I tried this and got PVVWW1R5R.

Oops, spilled the F onto the counter.

Weeks like this one make for unsteady pours.

[mosugoji64]

OK. Please no hating on me. It was just an experiment to attempt to get a mix that matched PVW15.

Mixed in a 350Ml bottle:

• 4 ounces - Rebel Reserve (this is the young whiskey base for the core. It sucks @$$ on it's own but I wanted some heavy vanilla-like sweetness. Plus...I just wanted to get rid of it.)
  
• 2 ounces - Berheim Original Wheat (I know, by adding this it's no longer a bourbon per se.)
  
• 1.5 ounces - Old Weller Antique NAS
  
• 2 ounces - W.L. Weller 12
  
• 2 ounces - William Larue Weller 2010
  
• 2 ounces - Jefferson Presidential Select Batch #25
  
• 1.5 ounces - Vintage Bourbon 17
  
• .5 ounce of reverse osmosis filtered water.

I let that sit for two weeks. One of the most complex and delicious noses erupts out of this. I realize by adding the JPS that it was the catalyst that brought the PVW15 profile because it's SW. The combination of 18yr and 17yr wheat balance out the younger whiskeys and the 12yr provides a bit of oakiness and the WLW provides a rich toffee mouth-feel as well as heightens the proof. Together you get caramel, vanilla sweetness with a hint of oak and a very long chewy finish. I have a bottle of 08' PVW to compare to and on the nose it's very very close. The flavor of my mix matches PVW15 on the arrival but mine excels mid palate with a bit more complexity but the two finishes are very different. I admit the PVW15 wins on the finish.

I expect the backlash on me to be harsh...but there it is. If you're in the camp that says "I don't care as long as it tastes good" you'd be very happy with this

I was inspired by your experiment and decided to whip up a batch for myself. A couple of changes were necessary since I don't have any Rebel Reserve or JPS, so I substituted WSR and ORVW 10/107. Also, my bottle of WLW is from '11. I let the concoction mingle for a couple of weeks and poured the first glass today. Wow! This is some great whiskey! I don't know how it compares to any of the VWs since I don't have any available (aside from ORVW), but it makes for a very, very good pour. The nose has a wonderful mingling of caramel and brown sugar with a lively bit of oak floating underneath. It's fascinating on the palate in that despite the volume of Weller included, I don't think it would immediately strike me as a Weller in a tasting. The combination is definitely greater than its components. Kudos to you for coming up with this blend!

[Bmac]

I was inspired by your experiment and decided to whip up a batch for myself. A couple of changes were necessary since I don't have any Rebel Reserve or JPS, so I substituted WSR and ORVW 10/107. Also, my bottle of WLW is from '11. I let the concoction mingle for a couple of weeks and poured the first glass today. Wow! This is some great whiskey! I don't know how it compares to any of the VWs since I don't have any available (aside from ORVW), but it makes for a very, very good pour. The nose has a wonderful mingling of caramel and brown sugar with a lively bit of oak floating underneath. It's fascinating on the palate in that despite the volume of Weller included, I don't think it would immediately strike me as a Weller in a tasting. The combination is definitely greater than its components. Kudos to you for coming up with this blend!

You're most welcome.

[RobP_n_TN]

I was inspired by your experiment and decided to whip up a batch for myself. A couple of changes were necessary since I don't have any Rebel Reserve or JPS, so I substituted WSR and ORVW 10/107. Also, my bottle of WLW is from '11. I let the concoction mingle for a couple of weeks and poured the first glass today. Wow! This is some great whiskey! I don't know how it compares to any of the VWs since I don't have any available (aside from ORVW), but it makes for a very, very good pour. The nose has a wonderful mingling of caramel and brown sugar with a lively bit of oak floating underneath. It's fascinating on the palate in that despite the volume of Weller included, I don't think it would immediately strike me as a Weller in a tasting. The combination is definitely greater than its components. Kudos to you for coming up with this blend!

Brian-

Are you bringing some of that concoction to the Gazebo?

[mosugoji64]

Brian-

Are you bringing some of that concoction to the Gazebo?

I'll see if I can scrounge up a container. If not, maybe I'll just bring the bottle!

[shoshani]

The Golden Wedding formula circa-1940 for its blend of straight bourbons or ryes was just one company's approach to producing a pleasing and (no doubt) consistent product. The whole thing was palate-driven, I'm sure, in that they must have felt the admittedly very small amounts of older whiskey did something particular for the blend.

That, and there wasn't a lot of older whiskey to go around, particularly for several years after Prohibition and then during and right after WW II.

There were two major reasons a distiller would market a vatted whiskey. One would be to create a consistent flavor profile that would withstand minor adjustments of one whiskey or another, when it became unavailable or too expensive and had to be replaced. The other was to stretch available supplies of matured, aged spirit; you'll see in wartime ads for Glenmore, for example, that they disclosed in the ad that a given whiskey was, say, 5% 6 year old whiskey and 95% 18 month old(!). Not every distiller was that forthright.

The interesting thing to me is when you go back and look at ads from the 1930s and 1940s, nearly every distiller had their top-tier bottled in bond whiskey, one or two mid-shelf 90 proof whiskeys - either a straight or a blend of straights - and then their blended whiskeys. None of this was apparently considered shameful or cheating back then; they had whiskey and had to use and market it somehow.

[Gillman]

Right, but the logic is always present to a greater or lesser degree. E.g. recently, some of the mainline brands seem lighter and sharper to me. This is often apparent of course where the age statements are dropped but I've noticed it in some brands that were always NAS. These distilleries IMO should be considering reserving older whiskey to add to these brands to avoid too young a profile. I am sure some already do this and some always have, e.g. Rare Breed has some 12 year old in it but that's just a well-known example. True, it's usually all from the same mashbill and warehouse but we know bourbon tastes can vary dramatically by age and location in a warehouse, blending makes from different companies of different ages that complement each other isn't all that different. It's not something of real moment in a glut time (except perhaps for a company's price brands), but we are long past those days at present..

Gary

[Gillman]

And look now here:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=V4Ig_dF_9FUC&pg=PA55&dq=rye+mashing+foaming&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ruOeT4GgEoOd6AHB-qz2Dg&ved=0CHIQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=rye%20mashing%20foaming&f=false

This suggests that simply making rye the minority grain eliminates foaming.

This is probably, or so I infer, the true explanation why many (not all) straight ryes in the U.S. are "legal ryes", i.e., it's not because of flavor. Although, perhaps they kill two birds with one stone.

Gary

[tommyboy38]

I once did a similiar vatting by necessity. I knocked over a box that held a previously opened Old Fitz BIB from the 90's and a new bottle of VWFRR. They both broke and the box held most of the whiskey so it was all poured into a bowl and then filtered into a bottle. It turned out to be very good whiskey but probably not as good as the VWFRR itself.

[Bmac]

Just curious if anyone has tried my mixture, yet? I made a new batch where I substituted Rebel Reserve for OWA NAS. Then added 1 oz of Maker's 46.

[Mickbourbon]

Great thread. Here is a link some of you may enjoy of Ralfy making his own Solera bottle. I think he's funny and he has reviewed bourbons as well.