Rittenhouse DSPKY354 on its way out

[StraightNoChaser]

The next bottling of Rittenhouse may likely be DSPKY1 depending on stocks. HH has been distilling for Ritt for just over 4 years now so they switchover is imminent. According to them, Ritt was made at BF to their exacting specifications. Their yeast, their mashbill, their grains, their recipe exactly as they would have done it, just a stone's throw away at the Shively distillery. The difference between the two distillates is supposedly negligible so hopefully we won't experience any DSP shock once the new stocks start rolling out.

Another nugget for you: There is talk about releasing a cask strength rye under the PHC label.

[Brisko]

Another nugget for you: There is talk about releasing a cask strength rye under the PHC label.

I won't believe it until I hear it from Harlan Wheately.

By the way, do we know how old Rittehouse is? I've always assumed it to be the minimum 4 y/o but I guess anything is possible.

[StraightNoChaser]

Minimum 4yr since its a straight rye

[redbear]

Chuck posted this in his blog a few days ago. Did you hear this elsewhere?

[Brisko]

Minimum 4yr since its a straight rye

I meant is it older than 4.

[StraightNoChaser]

Chuck posted this in his blog a few days ago. Did you hear this elsewhere?

From Rob Hutchins of HH.

[StraightNoChaser]

I meant is it older than 4.

Sorry, didn't grasp the point of your question. I didn't ask.

[cowdery]

"Their yeast, their mashbill, their grains, their recipe exactly as they would have done it."

I've reported them saying that in the past too, before they bought Bernheim and were making everything at BF and Beam. See what happens? When folks from the distillery tell you stuff, it's tempting to take them at their word.

And that, while not a lie, is a bunch of fluff. And as I have always said, they don't usually lie, but they do spin.

Since you guys want cold reality, you should know that's largely bullshit. In reality, BF went into their files, found a rye they had made successfully at that distillery before, and made that. Of course HH was involved, they checked it along the way, and declared it good. It was pretty much the same way with the bourbon.

One reason HH bought Bernheim is because they liked the BF distillery and Bernheim has a lot of similarities. In both places, you can very easily run a new recipe, change a yeast, etc. That said, the Bernheim-made Rittenhouse probably will be very close because that's the recipe they're making there, not the one they were making at Bardstown.

With both the bourbon and the rye, it was pretty much like any contract distilling job. I'm not saying the statement above is untrue, it's just a bit overstated. It creates an image that is somewhat less than accurate.

One reason this is the case is because the recipes are very similar to begin with, same with the bourbons. Interesting fact about yeast is that BF has a yeast room, so they likely used the Beam yeast when they made HH's bourbon there, but when they moved to Bernheim it doesn't have a yeast room, and HH wouldn't spend the million dollars it would take to build one, so they had to switch to dry yeast, although they worked with the manufacturer to get their yeast in a dry form.

Despite all of the recent attacks on me, I think most people here know I try whenever possible to cut through the producer bullshit. Anybody who thinks I'm a producer mouthpiece either hasn't been paying attention or has a personal agenda.

[StraightNoChaser]

Despite all of the recent attacks on me, I think most people here know I try whenever possible to cut through the producer bullshit. Anybody who thinks I'm a producer mouthpiece either hasn't been paying attention or has a personal agenda.

What are you then Chuck? Does your professional profile not identify you as a "marketing writer for a variety of commercial clients"?

[cowdery]

What are you then Chuck? Does your professional profile not identify you as a "marketing writer for a variety of commercial clients"?

And that makes me a producer mouthpiece?

Maybe I should mention that I haven't done any marketing work for a major distillery client in about 20 years, but I do have clients in other, unrelated industries.

Look, there's a reason this board has a rule against ad hominum comments. We need to get back to that. I shouldn't have to defend myself because I shouldn't be attacked. I'm sure a moderator would be happy to explain the rule to you.

[StraightNoChaser]

Regardless, I didn't perceive anything I heard today as exaggeration. Rob knew who I was from my previous posts and took a very "no frills" approach with our conversation. His language may be practiced and attractive, but I didn't sense for a second he was feeding me "fluff."

I mean, let's face it, he knew where the conversation would end up :grin:

[ethangsmith]

Is Pikesville already Bernheim rye since it's only 3 years old?

Hopefully the flavor profile of Rittenhouse does not change too much since it is such a wonderful whiskey. Since there are so many variables that go into creating a whiskey, I would certainly expect some amount of a flavor shift though. I'm guessing since it's a BIB product, they wouldn't be able to blend barrels from Bernheim and BF over the next several years to create a gradual shift in flavor??

[White Dog]

I can't wait to try DSP-KY-1 Ritt, and as long as it's good whiskey, I won't mind it being different from the current version. In fact, I'll welcome Bernheim-made Ritt having it's own "stamp," if you will.

I'd like to think there would be some variance between these distilleries, as it makes for more a more interesting tasting experience, at least for me.

[cowdery]

Do you think they'll be in a hurry to put those DSP-1 back labels on? They won't be using up old labels on this one.

[yountvillewjs]

Do you think they'll be in a hurry to put those DSP-1 back labels on? They won't be using up old labels on this one.

Is this a question or a statement? I'm really at odds over the shift -- I rather like the product as is, but it could (hopefully will be) better.

[smokinjoe]

It's currently a fine product, but I am seriously hoping for a less bourbony whiskey, with more of a spicy, face shmakin', rye bite.

[White Dog]

It's currently a fine product, but I am seriously hoping for a less bourbony whiskey, with more of a spicy, face shmakin', rye bite.

I couldn't agree more. And let's hope for more availability.

[cowdery]

The rise of Rittenhouse has been based entirely on the DSP-354 product. I know that was a source of delight for the Brown-Forman people and it surely stuck in the craw of the Heaven Hill people. For better or worse, I'm sure they'll be happy to put DSP-1 on the label. I wouldn't expect much of a change, but we'll see. As for availability, I'm sure they keep increasing production and unless they're holding something back for something special, like a Parker's rye, for example, I expect availability will improve.

Interesting point. Because it's BIB, they can't mix DSP-354 whiskey and DSP-1 whiskey together to smooth the transition. It has to be one or the other.

[jburlowski]

The rise of Rittenhouse has been based entirely on the DSP-354 product. I know that was a source of delight for the Brown-Forman people and it surely stuck in the craw of the Heaven Hill people. For better or worse, I'm sure they'll be happy to put DSP-1 on the label. I wouldn't expect much of a change, but we'll see. As for availability, I'm sure they keep increasing production and unless they're holding something back for something special, like a Parker's rye, for example, I expect availability will improve.

Interesting point. Because it's BIB, they can't mix DSP-354 whiskey and DSP-1 whiskey together to smooth the transition. It has to be one or the other.

[cowdery]

I'm retracting my post of 4/10/12. It was intemperate at the time and I have since had some conversations with folks at Heaven Hill that convince me it is also inaccurate.

This should reassure anyone who is concerned about Rittenhouse Rye changing when it shifts from DSP-354 (Brown-Forman) to DSP-1 (Heaven Hill Bernheim) juice. The rye whiskey made at Brown-Forman used the same mash bill and yeast they were using at DSP-31 (Heaven Hill Bardstown) before the fire and it's the same as they're using at DSP-1 now. Distilleries are different, of course, but Heaven Hill feels it has been their rye at all three distilleries despite those differences.

I hope to receive from them soon an estimate of when DSP-1 will begin to appear on the BIB back label. It hasn't quite been four years yet, but it's getting close.

It's fair to say that the people at Brown-Forman Distillery are proud of the whiskey (bourbon and rye) they have made on Heaven Hill's behalf, as well they should be, but Heaven Hill is also proud of the way they managed to keep their products in production and true to their bona fides despite the unexpected loss of their distillery.

[bad_scientist]

Same as before the fire? Does this yeast and recipe go all the way back to Kinsey?

[cowdery]

Same as before the fire? Does this yeast and recipe go all the way back to Kinsey?

Don't think anyone is claiming that. I know from 20 years ago I was told that Heaven Hill was already making rye when it started to get calls to produce for the dying companies in Pennsylvania and Maryland. I was told then that Heaven Hill made one bourbon recipe and one rye recipe, so it's probably more appropriate to call it the Heaven Hill rye recipe than to make any claims linking it to any previous producers. I also seem to recall that in 1991-92, Heaven Hill was making Pikesville but not Rittenhouse, which was then made in Owensboro by Glenmore. Heaven Hill got Rittenhouse in the big brand sell-off that UDV did after it bought Glenmore in 1992. So Heaven Hill got the brand indirectly, not directly from Kinsey-Publicker.

Heaven Hill's recipes got a rework when Earl Beam replaced Harry Beam as Master Distiller in 1940-something and since Earl Beam was fresh from Jim Beam at that point, that's probably where the family resemblance is. I think I'm safe in assuming that the rye Heaven Hill is making today is essentially the same rye they've been making for about 70 years.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll hear about it.

[Brisko]

It's fair to say that the people at Brown-Forman Distillery are proud of the whiskey (bourbon and rye) they have made on Heaven Hill's behalf, as well they should be, but Heaven Hill is also proud of the way they managed to keep their products in production and true to their bona fides despite the unexpected loss of their distillery.

[bad_scientist]

Don't think anyone is claiming that. I know from 20 years ago I was told that Heaven Hill was already making rye when it started to get calls to produce for the dying companies in Pennsylvania and Maryland. I was told then that Heaven Hill made one bourbon recipe and one rye recipe, so it's probably more appropriate to call it the Heaven Hill rye recipe than to make any claims linking it to any previous producers. I also seem to recall that in 1991-92, Heaven Hill was making Pikesville but not Rittenhouse, which was then made in Owensboro by Glenmore. Heaven Hill got Rittenhouse in the big brand sell-off that UDV did after it bought Glenmore in 1992. So Heaven Hill got the brand indirectly, not directly from Kinsey-Publicker.

Heaven Hill's recipes got a rework when Earl Beam replaced Harry Beam as Master Distiller in 1940-something and since Earl Beam was fresh from Jim Beam at that point, that's probably where the family resemblance is. I think I'm safe in assuming that the rye Heaven Hill is making today is essentially the same rye they've been making for about 70 years.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll hear about it.

Thanks Chuck! That's, as always, an extremely concise and in-depth bolus of info.

Did you get clarification on the wet/dry yeast issue that you brought up?

[cowdery]

My suspicion, because Brown Forman is equipped to do so, is that Brown Forman continued to use jug yeast as Heaven Hill did at Bardstown. They cannot use jug yeast at Bernheim because they don't have a yeast room, so they're definitely using dry yeast now, but it's a proprietary yeast made to their specifications.