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Willett Pot Still - How come we never discuss it?


humchan2k
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Because the producer is a dirty fraud. Its a delicious bourbon in an awesome bottle. But KBD have been pissing Chuck off for 20 years so if he doesn't like them then we don't like them. Plus, look at what they did with Noah's Mill. It was a great bourbon with a 14yr age statement and then in went NAS and started using younger bourbon and totally ruined it.

Any non-disstiller producer, if they are buying bulk aged whiskey, then they are buying a finite amount. Once its gone, its gone. Look at Bourye. The second version had a new name, son of bourye, because there was no more bourye. So when is the current potstill going to run out and they're going to put something else in the same bottle and tell you its the same, but you know it isn't?

I wasn't aware that being a member of SB meant allegiance to Cowdery.:skep:

Also, They didn't choose to drop the age statements. The Bourbon Boom caused that, just as it caused the loss of Weller age statements.

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I had my first taste of this Monday evening. Its not bad. But at its price point, there lots of stuff better, that can be had for quite a bit cheaper. YMMV

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Also, They didn't choose to drop the age statements. The Bourbon Boom caused that, just as it caused the loss of Weller age statements.

Of course they choose it. They made a business decision to drop the age statement. Sure the bourbon boom was an underlying cause, but they don't get a free pass from me on this.

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Of course they choose it. They made a business decision to drop the age statement. Sure the bourbon boom was an underlying cause, but they don't get a free pass from me on this.

Technically yes, and I was gonna put quotation marks on the word choose. My point was that if they could still bottle Noah's as a 15yr at the same price and profitability, I think they would. Also, if they still had 18yr old Bernheim Wheater, they'd still be doing the Vintage 17 Bourbon. The simple fact is that there isn't any excess old Bourbon laying around. If we can't get EC18, we sure as hell can't get Noah's 15.

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Also, the Willett Pot is fine, but I would not spend my own money on it. And the name that they use on this product does annoy the shit out of me. Column stills produce the best Whiskeys in the world. F--king embrace that fact!

Edited by White Dog
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I've found Drew, his dad & family to be nothing but honest, straight forward brokers of damn fine bourbon and rye.... "When you find a bottle of theirs that is great .. go buy as much as you can because the next batch may be different!" That's simply how it works and it doesn't mean that they slapped you in the face when one batch differs from another.

The fraud business is wrong ... it's just wrong.

I'm not saying that there needs to be an investigation by a federal agency or anything like that. I'm just saying in terms of the way they market their products they make you think that they have a distillery and they are making the bourbon in your bottle just like Jack Daniels and Jim Beam. That is the way they are selling themselves. You said it yourself they are BROKERS not distillers. There's nothing wrong with that except for when you hide it from the customers. Why? because of your next point. If you find something good from them that's all there is to it, you can't expect it to be the same whiskey next time you go buy the same bottle with the same label. And yes, if Heaven Hill is inconsistent we know that this is just the laws of nature, like baking a cake it isn't going to be perfect every time, but with buying and selling bulk whiskey it is BY DESIGN inconsistent. Hence, the slap in the face.

I'm sure Drew and his family are nice people and like I said, I'm not calling for any type of prosecution or litigation, I just mean "dirty fraud" in an informal sense. Like everybody in politics is a dirty liar. :cool:

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I'm not saying that there needs to be an investigation by a federal agency or anything like that. I'm just saying in terms of the way they market their products they make you think that they have a distillery and they are making the bourbon in your bottle just like Jack Daniels and Jim Beam. That is the way they are selling themselves. You said it yourself they are BROKERS not distillers. There's nothing wrong with that except for when you hide it from the customers. Why? because of your next point. If you find something good from them that's all there is to it, you can't expect it to be the same whiskey next time you go buy the same bottle with the same label. And yes, if Heaven Hill is inconsistent we know that this is just the laws of nature, like baking a cake it isn't going to be perfect every time, but with buying and selling bulk whiskey it is BY DESIGN inconsistent. Hence, the slap in the face.

I'm sure Drew and his family are nice people and like I said, I'm not calling for any type of prosecution or litigation, I just mean "dirty fraud" in an informal sense. Like everybody in politics is a dirty liar. :cool:

Are you aware that they went live again at the start of 2012, and that they are using a pot still? Obviously, this has nothing to do with what they've been bottling, nor with the bottlings we're discussing, but I do think it's awesome that an old Kentucky Distillery has actually went live, after so many having gone silent.

http://www.whiskyadvocateblog.com/2012/03/30/willetts-making-whiskey-again/

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A modified pot/column still which I understand Drew used because they couldn't get a coupling to work going to the primary column still. Are they distilling on a regular basis now?

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I don't live there, but as far as I've read they're distilling on a regular basis. Can anyone confirm or deny based on real evidence?

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I was down there last April and they where running the column and pot. Nice folks and the white dog off the column was nice stuff, and some being doubled in the pot still, which is a true doubling was nice stuff as well. That should be good bourbon in a few years.

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I was down there last April and they where running the column and pot. Nice folks and the white dog off the column was nice stuff, and some being doubled in the pot still, which is a true doubling was nice stuff as well. That should be good bourbon in a few years.
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I'm not saying that there needs to be an investigation by a federal agency or anything like that. I'm just saying in terms of the way they market their products they make you think that they have a distillery and they are making the bourbon in your bottle just like Jack Daniels and Jim Beam.
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Sure have, located in downtown OZ, if I remember correctly.

Yep. Right in the middle of town on Main Street. They really did pick a nice location.

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Have you ever heard of Old Rip Van Winkle distillery?????

Have you ever heard of Signatory?

In Scotland there's a lot more truth in labeling. Every bottle of single-malt tells you the truth where its made whether its a distillery bottling or an independent bottler like Signatory. Can't say the same for U.S. bottlers. In the U.S. everything is one big grey area. When it comes to KBD its a little more grey than others, that's all. If you don't think that's on some level a fraud you are either being dishonest yourself or ignorant. :cool:

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The real ignorance of this conversation is calling American Whiskey NDPs frauds. There are very good reasons they don't disclose their sources and I'm sure they have no interest in catering to overly entitled consumers anyhow. If you don't like, don't buy it. Calling them frauds is not necessary or appropriate.

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Wanting to know where something was made makes one overly entitled? Okay then.

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For the Scottish example, it's only "mostly" true for Single Malts. You'll likely not know (or at least its difficult to find out) what the source is in blends and there are examples of Single Malts where the source is not revealed (e.g. Ellenstown, Port Askaig, etc.,)

Personally, I'd like to see sources for North American whiskey follow Tequila's lead where the NOM is clearly stated on the bottle.

Edited by ChainWhip
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I skip the pedestrian KBD expressions due to Drew's "F U for asking" response to theories about their barrel sources here on SB. There are many respectable and respected producers of fine American whiskey and I choose to spend my money on their products instead.

I will purchase an Estate bottling if a friend or trusted retailer has selected the barrel since they are one-offs by their nature but I won't support their business otherwise.

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While it's true Scottish Independent Merchants disclose the name of the distillery on the label of high end Single Malts that's usually not the case for the lower price brands. McCelland's for example does not disclose the source of it's Highland Single Malt (Glen Gariogh at one time but they reserve the right to use any) but they sell it for $22.95 a bottle. When the price gets up into the premium range however the distillery is disclosed.

When an American NDP offers me a brand costing as much as, say, BT 2012 LE SmB, I believe it's reasonable for me to ask who made the whisky.

Edited by squire
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The real ignorance of this conversation is calling American Whiskey NDPs frauds. ... Calling them frauds is not necessary or appropriate.

Amen & period. It's totally unnecessary and, frankly, offensive to those who appreciate what they (KBD) do and the spirits they deliver. It's also moot, as has been pointed out, since they are, indeed an active distiller. Not being satisfied with that .. Lazer has to include me and anyone else who felt it inappropriate to be "dishonest .. or ignorant". WTF?

I think the WPS bourbon is fine. I think the bottle is neat and it does become a topic of conversation .. invariably .. as it sits atop the shelf holding my collection.

My post was meant only to object to the besmirching of the KBD name by blatantly calling them dirty frauds. I'm sure my opinion is colored by the fact that I like and respect the KBD family and I enjoy many of their offerings. Peace and out.

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I too would prefer to know where something is distilled but at the same time, a product can acquire a "house" characteristic in the hands of a NDP because of the way it selects and/or further ages it or possibly mingles it. A good example is Pure Kentucky XO which IMO for many years has had a very specific character, kind of a combination of old and newer tastes, that I've never found elsewhere, so I would buy that and it used to be quite inexpensive (not sure of the price right now), so that was an off-set to a degree for not knowing who distilled it. Same thing e.g., with Van Winkle rye, for a long time it wasn't clear where it was from although it finally come out I think, but I relied on the brand as a guarantee of quality and it was and remains so to this day.

Looking at the known-source side (distillery offerings), sometimes with these, it might have been contracted elsewhere at least as white dog - this is known to have happened.

HH used for a time Beam and B-F distilling plant when its own still had burned down for example so some of its product for a time wasn't from the old DSP 33 or entirely from there. Finally HH bought new Bernheim and makes great bourbon there (distills it I mean), so another variable is added as often occurs in the distilling business. Even where you are pretty sure of source - Maker's has always been made I believe in Loretto for example - bourbon can change in taste over time and IMO Maker's does not taste quite like it did 30 years ago. Age statements have changed for many brands, which can affect taste right there.

Finally, if we look back far enough, distillers originally did not typically age their product, they sold it to people who did so off-site or later on their site perhaps, but the point being the role of middlemen and NDPs was critical to the development of the American whiskey industry.

So I kind of view it in this broader sense and at the end of the day can enjoy what is in the bottle without needing to know where it originated.

Gary

Edited by Gillman
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Not fraudulent? Probably not legally, but when any producer of NPP whisky intentionally makes a material misrepresentation of fact for their own monetary gain what do you call it . . . fibbing?

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