Willett Pot Still - How come we never discuss it?

[Dolph Lundgren]

Not fraudulent? Probably not legally, but when any producer of NPP whisky intentionally makes a material misrepresentation of fact for their own monetary gain what do you call it . . . fibbing?

Just that: a misrepresentation. Technically, it'd be a fraud if they lied on the bottle and said they distilled it. But they don't lie. Instead they use suggestive advertising to make you 'think' they distilled it.

Its kind of like what you see today with law schools and career reporting statistics; schools report 98% of students are employed 9 months after graduation, but what they dont report is that half of them are employed as cashiers at Walmart.

While I'm a big fan of Willett's releases (primarily the family reserve stuff), I'm def not a fan of misrepresentations (looking at you, Templeton). But when it comes to whiskey, especially with the interwebs, smartphones, and all that jazz, does it really matter? If you care to find out, it's easy info to obtain. And if you're just some schlub grabbing a bottle off of the shelf because it looks pretty, do you really think they care whether or not it's Willett juice? Prob not.

[squire]

Okay, I'm down with misrepresentation. Whatever term we choose the practice is smack in the middle of that grey area between falsehood and truth. Unfortunately, it's also widespread throughout the industry.

You would think they could at least come up with something funny.

[JB64]

Have one for me Jim, and let me know what you think.

I cracked it open last night and had a couple of pours. I thought it tasted OK, a little on the thin side, reminded me a lot of EWB. I will admit I would have been disapointed with the bourbon if had payed for the bottle. I still think the bottle looks good on my bar.

[Max Power]

Calling KBD a "dirty fraud" is rdiculous and libelous. Who cares if Chuck doesn't like them? I have had great bourbon and rye under the Willett label. I don't have to know where a whiskey is distilled to like it.

Amen, brother. :grin:

[Max Power]

For the Scottish example, it's only "mostly" true for Single Malts. You'll likely not know (or at least its difficult to find out) what the source is in blends and there are examples of Single Malts where the source is not revealed (e.g. Ellenstown, Port Askaig, etc.,)

Personally, I'd like to see sources for North American whiskey follow Tequila's lead where the NOM is clearly stated on the bottle.

It's strange that some of the most stringent standards for spirit bottling is in Mexico, but the NOM practice would be useful. However, the NOM only tells you so much because the source of the agave plant itself used by each brand can vary widely...as can many other aspects. The NOM basically gives you the address and likely the equipment and water.

[ChainWhip]

/rambling on

Off the top of my head, I think Bruichladdich will tell you where they sourced their barley for some of their malt (Organic or Provenance bottlings I think).

The vast majority of bourbon/rye/scotch grain sources aren't well documented to the average consumer. For Agave (in contrast with grains/cereals), I have this impression that terroir for the plants is an important factor (like grapes for wine). With corn, you start thinking about GMO versus non and my head starts spinning.

;-)

Back to the point though, there are indeed a lot of factors to consider but IMO the distillery information should be the very BASIC piece of data to have.

/rambling off

Edit: forgot to mention that Agave farm relationships with NOM is probably very different from grain sources' relationship to Bourbon/Rye distilleries.

Edited January 4, 2013 by ChainWhip

[Josh]

It's like Deja Vu all over again. :deadhorse:

There are some of us who base our opinions of KBD's ownership on Drew's posts in the Whiskey Trails thread. I reserve the right to hold my opinion of him based on that and not on nice tours people have gotten at KBD.

I am glad they are finally distilling. It at least puts that whole "they don't even distill anything" business to rest.

To the point that many of made that "the only truth is what's in the bottle", the sad truth is that most of what KBD puts in the bottle is crap. The only bourbon I have ever purchased that actually got WORSE every time I drank it was the last bottle of Kentucky Vintage I bought. Bleck.

But that's just my opinion.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Josh

[MyOldKyDram]

*searches Whiskey Trails*

Still a fan of Vintage Bourbon and Rye, plus their Etate bottlings. But look forward to sitting back with something non KBD and reading this.

[BFerguson]

I cracked it open last night and had a couple of pours. I thought it tasted OK, a little on the thin side, reminded me a lot of EWB. I will admit I would have been disapointed with the bourbon if had payed for the bottle. I still think the bottle looks good on my bar.

That's going to be one of the problems with it, not that other lines don't suffer from the same issue, but the variances may be larger with a non distiller.

I've purchased and consumed just one of these. It was bought some time ago, maybe around the time when it first came to market.

Anyway, it was a fairly thick pour, great mouthfeel, almost creamy. It had the makings of something great, but the flavor killed it for me. It was a little too scotch like for me, I know that vague, and I'm not a huge drinking of things from across the pond, but that it what immediately came to mind. I tried to like it, but just couldn't. I'm sure somebody else would have loved it, but it just wasn't for me,

Stranger yet, I've cracked a bottle of GD Barrel Select recently. Has the exact same taste as the Willett.

So who knows what is in there.......

B

[GaryT]

Back on topic . . . I like Willett Pot Still well enough, but don't buy it because I think it is overpriced. I do plan on buying one bottle - mainly for the bottle.

I guess I've had better luck with their products. Johnny Drum Private Stock to me is damn fine bourbon for the money. I've had a couple bottles, and while I didn't do a true side by side comparison - the second didn't disappoint and was very similar to the first (and they were bought more than a year apart; in fact in different states). I never had Noah's Mill with an age statement, but like the current version pretty well (albeit a bit overpriced IMHO). It has a unique sort of mustiness, which some might find objectionable (as some find the peaty/medicinal qualities of Laphroaig objectionable), but from time to time I crave that "different" profile. Some of the best rye whiskey I've tried has been in Willett estate bottlings.

I wasn't on the board when apparently Drew irked various folks, but when I've met him and different members of the family - I found them to be fairly open and honest. During a tasting, Hunter went through to give us the number of barrels they used in different labels with approximate ages and mashbills (along the line of "This has 3-5 high rye barrels in the 7-9 year range, with 10-12 younger . . .") Every distillery has a different take on how much info they show. Four Roses is very transparent, while others won't disclose their mashbills. When I'm tasting a dram - I find the amount of information I have on the mashbill (or where it was distilled, where it was aged, etc) doesn't factor into my enjoyment of the spirit. Sight, smell, taste - that's where the rubber meets the road in my book :-)

[Josh]

Back on topic . . .

How dare you!

Mods, please delete Gary's on topic post.

[BradleyC]

Wanting to know where something was made makes one overly entitled? Okay then.

no. simply wanting to know does not make you over entitled. calling someone a fraud because they dont give you the answer you demand when they are contractually bound not to disclose is different.

[squire]

Bradley I believe the only paper involved is a bill of sale.

[BradleyC]

Bradley I believe the only paper involved is a bill of sale.

I have no proof but have heard otherwise. I've also heard that none of the majors are in the bulk whiskey marketplace. As Chuck says, "they don't sell bulk whiskey until they do." (please correct that quote if I got it wrong. I didn't look it up first so I"m sure I did mess it up)

[BradleyC]

Bradley I believe the only paper involved is a bill of sale.

How about this? A paper bill of sale and gentleman's agreement to keep your mouth shut?

[ChainWhip]

I like the bottle but it takes up too much room. It's an "ok" whiskey but I'd rather drink the other bottles in my cabinet - there's just so much other better whiskey out there.

[squire]

That's my issue Bradley, it's all hearsay, which makes interesting cocktail conversation but is dispositive of nothing. My reasoning is since the Shipiras started up Heaven Hill in 1935 they made a name in the industry for bulk whisky sales. They would sell it new, they would age it for the customer in their warehouses, bottle it when the customer was ready, use custom labels, etc., a ready when your want it service and certainly no secret. In fact today in States that allow grocery store liquor sales the house brands for Kroger, Albertsons and others are Heaven Hill products and it's no secret. Even smaller entities, I knew a fellow who owned a small liquor store in the Georgetown area of DC who sold his own house brand of Bourbon, which he claimed, was made especially for him by this little distillery in Kentucky. It was obvious, an HH standard bottle, DSP, address, all on the back label. The only thing custom about it was the label which did identify his store as the brand. It also sold for a couple of dollars more than the identical HH whisky on the shelf close to it. When I politely queried the owner he smiled, sorta winked and implied that it was a special deal that only a few people could get and It was a long standing relationship, which it probably was. My point is HH did this for one store which shows how involved they are/were in the we'll make it for you business.

With that history and open exposure as supplier to National chain stores why would HH single out little old KBD for a one off contract essentially saying 'shuss, don't tell anybody we sold you this, it's a secret'. Only KBD benefits from such subterfuge.

Edited January 5, 2013 by squire

[sailor22]

I know, lets talk about something we haven't covered before.........Know where I can get some Van Winkey?

[Restaurant man]

I know, lets talk about something we haven't covered before.........Know where I can get some Van Winkey?

Actually, I heard they were putting the lost barrels into WPSR.

[Halifax]

I've rolled some fine women over the years. I knew next to nothing about them or their past. Didn't give a shit... It was great ass.

My name is Rod. I like GREAT bourbon. I don't give a flying flip where it comes from.

[Josh]

I've rolled some fine women over the years. I knew next to nothing about them or their past. Didn't give a shit... It was great ass.

My name is Rod. I like GREAT bourbon. I don't give a flying flip where it comes from.

Thanks for that insight into your life, Rod.

[squire]

I'm sure the ladies appreciated your fine sensibilities.

[MyOldKyDram]

Wondering if the Old Tub avatar refers to a bourbon or female conquest...

[smokinjoe]

Yo! Diceman!!!

[Lazer]

All the guy asked was why we don't discuss willet potstill and I think we have our answer now. :grin: