The French Spirits Forum- Cognac, Armagnac, Calvados

[ramblinman]

On a whim tonight picked up a bottle of Marie Duffau Bas Armagnac Napoleon. I've never had an armagnac before and seemed like a decent way to start after talking to the shop keeper and reading a few reviews online.

Sipping on my first pour now, neat and in a rocks glass since thats what I had handy, and so far I'm having trouble seeing the attraction. It reminds me a lot of the whiskeys put out by small time distillers out west.

The nose is very raw alcohol. Reminds me of the Balcones True Blue bottle I have, and some 'shine that I've had. Previously I associated this with more of a grainy alcohol, but I guess I'll need to reevaluate that perception. Smells much higher proof than 80.

I have to hunt to find much flavor, after letting it sit in my mouth for a while I get a few notes of baked apples/bears, maybe a little walnut or almond in there. Not much going on though and feels very thin.

I realize this isn't going to be a perfect representation of the style, and $30 for any imported spirit is going to be pushing it for quality, but so far I'm confused by the praise that armagnacs receive. Any advice on appreciating this more? Did I happen upon a subpar bottle?

Edited December 31, 2014 by ramblinman

[portwood]

I realize this isn't going to be a perfect representation of the style, and $30 for any imported spirit is going to be pushing it for quality, but so far I'm confused by the praise that armagnacs receive. Any advice on appreciating this more? Did I happen upon a subpar bottle?

I think your first statement is the answer. Using that particular bottle to judge what Armagnac can be, is like using Jack Daniels or to judge Straight Bourbon - its a decent bottle of alcohol but not intended to be sipped neat.

The sweet spot for bourbon is in the 8-12 year range. For Armagnac, you're not going to get good quality below 12yo, and the truly great bottles are in the 20++ year range.

Having said that, now that you have tasted the "introductory bottle" you'll be able to appreciate the better stuff later. Better to start at the bottom and work your way up than tasting GTS (or whatever the latest holy grail happens to be) first, then tasting the regular Buffalo Trace.

Edited January 1, 2015 by portwood

[ramblinman]

I think your first statement is the answer. Using that particular bottle to judge what Armagnac can be, is like using Jack Daniels or to judge Straight Bourbon - its a decent bottle of alcohol but not intended to be sipped neat.

The sweet spot for bourbon is in the 8-12 year range. For Armagnac, you're not going to get good quality below 12yo, and the truly great bottles are in the 20++ year range.

Having said that, now that you have tasted the "introductory bottle" you'll be able to appreciate the better stuff later. Better to start at the bottom and work your way up than tasting GTS (or whatever the latest holy grail happens to be) first, then tasting the regular Buffalo Trace.

Yeah, I think I might have to sit out and try something at a bar if I happen to. I'll revisit this bottle a bit, but really having trouble finding much worthwhile here at the moment, and no harm if it stays that way, haven't ever found a scotch I really like either.

[sailor22]

Both Cognac and Armagnac have a somewhat shy palate relative Bourbon and Rye. Don't expect to be slapped in the mouth with flavors, particularly at 80 proof. Coming from whiskey the flavors in all but a few bottles will seem less than impressive.

The nose on the best bottles is subtle, complex, deep and magical, but you won't find much of that magic in the $30 to $50 range.

The finish can be another exceptional strong point for fine Brandy, but again not at that price point.

Marie Duffau also bottles a "Hors d' Age" 12yr bottle for about $60 that will probably give you a little better hint of Armagnac's charms than it's younger sister but even it is a bit light compared to something like the the DeLord 25yr Armagnac. If your interested in further exploration then the DeLord would be a much better starting point IMHO.

There are some barrel proof Cognacs and Armagnacs appearing that are designed to be something the typical whiskey drinker might find interesting....stay tuned, this could get really interesting.

[ramblinman]

There are some barrel proof Cognacs and Armagnacs appearing that are designed to be something the typical whiskey drinker might find interesting....stay tuned, this could get really interesting.

Now that could get interesting.

I did some further research into this thread and others and put the DeLord on my "taste if you have the opportunity to" list, and looking forward to that time coming.

[tanstaafl2]

A bottle of the Gourry De Chadville cognac just arrived thanks to help from a fellow SBer along with a bottle of a Navarre cognac that came highly recommended despite the price to see if I can find some cognac's outside the big labels that are as interesting as some recent armagnac's.

The "Chad" is cask strength as is the Navarre although cask strength is down to 90 proof for this one. Depending on how it goes might try to work these in tomorrow at the Wednesday tasting. Will likely need to go first before some of the scheduled whiskies start bombing the palate!

[mark fleetwood]

Count me in as the latest bourbonophile to start checking this out. Combination of bourbon price increases/product-disappearing (not to mention the absurdity of many NDP NAS bourbons) and stumbling upon the relative value of Armagnac seems too good to be true. Have a Delord 25yr on its way from Binny's and can't wait to try it. Trying to learn as much as about Armagnac as the web will allow and know of the 4 grape varieties and the three regions. What reco's do you have to sample some of these? EDIT- no need for recos, I see an Armagnac recommendations thread. But one question: the age of a vintage-dated bottle isn't necessarily current year minus the vintage date right?

Edited January 13, 2015 by mark fleetwood

[sku]

But one question: the age of a vintage-dated bottle isn't necessarily current year minus the vintage date right?

Right, at least with regard to age in oak, because it's common practice in France to transfer brandy from oak to glass containers and leave it in glass for a significant period, sometimes decades.

[sailor22]

Also given the slow moving retail market some of the pricier bottles have sat on the shelf for a decade.

[sailor22]

These three books will give you a good overview of French Brandy;

Armagnac by Charles Neal

Cognac - The seductive saga of the world's most coveted spirit, by Kyle Jarrard

Cognac by Nicholas Faith

Neal's chapter "Tasting Armagnac" is particularly helpful when getting started.

Edited January 14, 2015 by sailor22

[kjbeggs]

A bottle of the Gourry De Chadville cognac just arrived thanks to help from a fellow SBer along with a bottle of a Navarre cognac that came highly recommended despite the price to see if I can find some cognac's outside the big labels that are as interesting as some recent armagnac's.

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The "Chad" is cask strength as is the Navarre although cask strength is down to 90 proof for this one. Depending on how it goes might try to work these in tomorrow at the Wednesday tasting. Will likely need to go first before some of the scheduled whiskies start bombing the palate!

[tanstaafl2]

Did you try that "Chad" out yet?

I got my bottle a few days before Christmas, but haven't yet found a good occasion to open it. (Been battling the Crud the past two weeks, so I've been holding off opening anything new as much as possible).

We tackled it and a bunch of others yesterday but haven't had a chance to write it up yet. Had three cognacs and 2 armagnac's and the Chad was probably the best of the bunch to me. Certainly a lot of evolving flavors going on in it.

[sailor22]

Opened my "Chad" yesterday too Bruce. I was drinking, not tasting but the first impressions left me really really impressed. More like a grape based whiskey than what I think of when I think of Brandy. Need to experiment with adding a little water and giving it more air time but it certainly showed very well last night.

Driscoll called it a game changer and he might be right.

[tanstaafl2]

Opened my "Chad" yesterday too Bruce. I was drinking, not tasting but the first impressions left me really really impressed. More like a grape based whiskey than what I think of when I think of Brandy. Need to experiment with adding a little water and giving it more air time but it certainly showed very well last night.

Driscoll called it a game changer and he might be right.

Only problem is it makes me wish that I could get more!

[mark fleetwood]

Has anyone bought directly from a producer? Just wondering if I can expand my options by ordering directly and what, if any, legal or regulatory hoops I'd need to jump through.

[tanstaafl2]

Has anyone bought directly from a producer? Just wondering if I can expand my options by ordering directly and what, if any, legal or regulatory hoops I'd need to jump through.

[sailor22]

I have been trying to buy a barrel of barrel proof unfiltered Cognac from a particular producer for a small group and I can tell you that getting it labeled and bottled is no small project. Most importantly, if you don't have the importer interested enough to work closely with you then the producer is pretty much at a loss how to proceed. The small producers have to rely on their importer and distributors or the juice never gets sold in the USA. Your best bet is to work through a powerful retailer who's annual purchases give the importer enough incentive to do something that is as much of a PITA as this is.

I'm talking about something like 100 to 200 bottles. If you only want two or three then your best bet is to go to the different producers and charm them into selling you some private stock that you can bring back. Bruce nailed it - learn to speak French or at least contact a broker on site who will help you out. The incentive for anyone to work with you is very small because there just isn't any money in it for them.

[mark fleetwood]

I have been trying to buy a barrel of barrel proof unfiltered Cognac from a particular producer for a small group and I can tell you that getting it labeled and bottled is no small project. Most importantly, if you don't have the importer interested enough to work closely with you then the producer is pretty much at a loss how to proceed. The small producers have to rely on their importer and distributors or the juice never gets sold in the USA. Your best bet is to work through a powerful retailer who's annual purchases give the importer enough incentive to do something that is as much of a PITA as this is.

I'm talking about something like 100 to 200 bottles. If you only want two or three then your best bet is to go to the different producers and charm them into selling you some private stock that you can bring back. Bruce nailed it - learn to speak French or at least contact a broker on site who will help you out. The incentive for anyone to work with you is very small because there just isn't any money in it for them.

Sure wish I had paid more attention during 3 years of high school French. I'm going to reach out to about 20 producers, pure cold call (email), see if anyone bites (doubt it). I'll tell them my dad was at Normandy (he wasn't).

Edited January 17, 2015 by mark fleetwood

[ChainWhip]

Only problem is it makes me wish that I could get more!

Seriously? I may want another one too - man this bottle is a kick in the pants!

[AaronWF]

I'm sold on the Chad. It's gone??

[compliance]

Chad sold out within a couple days. Mine is still sitting at will call, but you are all making me realize I needed to plan a special trip sooner rather than later.

I have a friend who will buy pretty much whatever I tell him, and I know he picked up 1 or 2 of these. Sometimes he sells them back to me. Sounds like I need to let him know I'm interested

[tanstaafl2]

I'm sold on the Chad. It's gone??

There were only 330 bottles to begin from a single 250 liter French cask with. The importer may have more at some point (I am going to try and find out) but it will be a different barrel and who knows if it will be the same. Then again it might be better!

[sku]

There were only 330 bottles to begin from a single 250 liter French cask with. The importer may have more at some point (I am going to try and find out) but it will be a different barrel and who knows if it will be the same. Then again it might be better!

Here's one: https://www.winfieldflynn.com/spirits/Gourry-de-Chadeville-1er-Cru-Fine-Champagne-Cognac-w3501118rv

[tanstaafl2]

Emailed the importer who noted he hopes to bring in more from Gourry including an older bottling this year (didn't say if it would again be cask strength) as well as a younger cask strength bottling for use primarily as a mixer. The "Chad" is about 16yo I think.

Prices in NY that I have seen and that Steve notes above seem to be at least $30 or so more than the K&L prices was. I suppose that is to be expected with NYC.

[kjbeggs]

I knew I'd end up regretting not getting at least two bottles of the "Chad".

Tanstaafl2, keep us posted on what you hear from the importer.