smokinghole Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 His math isn't that off. PPB is ug/l so if someone drinks a gallon of water a day thats 3.78L (urinal math) which comes out to 26.7 ug for that days worth of water. You're correct you cannot multiply ppb, but it can be converted beautifully to the metric system and expressed as a mass.Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauiSon Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) I think you don't understand the standard either. You can drink water with 15 ppb lead your whole life with no likely ill effect. The standard is not for cumulative intake, it a concentration standard (per his statement). If it is not exceeded - no worries. Edited August 23, 2013 by MauiSon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelturtle1 Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Honestly everyone is misinterpreting what the term action level means in regards to lead in drinking water. Community water systems are allowed to have 10% of samples above the 15ppb level for lead, if there are more than 10% of the samples above the thresh hold they must then take "action" to correct the problem. The term that EPA would use for a "limit" is MCL and currently there is not one for lead. At one point there used to me an MCL of 50ppb for lead but that went out of effect a while ago. I am doing this testing to see if there are any trends in how lead leaches or if it does leach from decanters, there really are not any "guidelines" that can be followed health wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Reserve Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 If a solution contains 15 ppb Pb, it contains 15 µg Pb/L. If you consume 1 L of this solution you will consume 15 µg Pb. If you consume 2 L, you consume 30 µg Pb. It is just that simple.Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Reserve Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Honestly everyone is misinterpreting what the term action level means in regards to lead in drinking water. Community water systems are allowed to have 10% of samples above the 15ppb level for lead, if there are more than 10% of the samples above the thresh hold they must then take "action" to correct the problem. The term that EPA would use for a "limit" is MCL and currently there is not one for lead. At one point there used to me an MCL of 50ppb for lead but that went out of effect a while ago. I am doing this testing to see if there are any trends in how lead leaches or if it does leach from decanters, there really are not any "guidelines" that can be followed health wise.I'll yield to the environmental chemist when it comes to interpreting EPA rules. I'm more accustomed to CLIA rules and regulations.Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelturtle1 Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 What will be more applicable is the Lead limit for bottled water which is 5ppb (never knew this existed)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauiSon Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 If a solution contains 15 ppb Pb, it contains 15 µg Pb/L. If you consume 1 L of this solution you will consume 15 µg Pb. If you consume 2 L, you consume 30 µg Pb. It is just that simple.WillI won't argue that point, except that it's trivial and unrelated to the truth of my observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 While the Treatment Technique Action level for lead in public water supplies is indeed 15 ppb (or 0.015 ppm or mg/L which is the unit EPA tends to use for some reason) it is probably worth pointing out that recent research on lead and health effects has suggested there is really no true "safe" level for lead in humans, especially in infants and young children (who fortunately probably aren't drinking a lot of whiskey, old or otherwise!). The EPA MCLG or Maximum Contaminant Level Goal for lead is zero! In our environment today zero is likely unattainable. The average American has about 1.12 μg/dL in their blood as it is. But adding any extra has additional potential for lead related health problems.Not that any of this has stopped me from drinking the occasional nip from older whiskey!I wonder if leaded fuel used at the time played a role in lead levels in older whiskey. I would think it contributed at least something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Reserve Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 At one time the critical value (an alert level that usually requred immediate medical attention) was 50 µg/dL, it is now 10 µg/dL. Back in the inner city, high levels were common, in the suburbs I rarely see levels above 5 µg/dL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 At one time the critical value (an alert level that usually requred immediate medical attention) was 50 µg/dL, it is now 10 µg/dL. Back in the inner city, high levels were common, in the suburbs I rarely see levels above 5 µg/dL.That has changed now too. For children between the ages of 1-5 the new reference value ("level of concern" is now considered outdated terminology) is based on the 97.5th percentile of the population blood lead level in children ages 1-5 (taken as the average from the two most recent NHANES results). That level is currently 5 µg/dL.This is a "Public Health" level to initiate preventive strategies to reduce exposure. Chelation treatment for lead in children is still generally not considered until the level reaches 45 µg/dL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutton Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I wonder if leaded fuel used at the time played a role in lead levels in older whiskey. I would think it contributed at least something.That, coal fired power plants, refineries, etc ... found its way into ground water and soil through acid rain, etc. (and hence our food supply). I don't think it ever really goes away, until we ultimately ingest it all. Good news is our power plants and refineries are much cleaner now, but the Chinese are on a path to surpass us in that respect. If you like tea, at least stay away from that grown in China.Your testing is really impressive Michael - I think you summed it up - the results are highly variable, and the only way to know for sure is to test what you plan to drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalessin Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8tmp4bYhiFPVUhJTk1uWmppcmM/edit?usp=sharingHopefully this works as I have never used google documents before... Above is a link to the spreadsheet I am continuing to generate, still trying to figure out why the one Cabin Still was so high. There was obviously more lead in the decanter itself but it is from the same manufacturer as the rest of the SW decanters.Thanks for putting this together!I'm wondering if the Cabin Still could have involved contamination of the sample or of the testing container; that's a pretty high number it generated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smknjoe Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8tmp4bYhiFPVUhJTk1uWmppcmM/edit?usp=sharingHopefully this works as I have never used google documents before... Above is a link to the spreadsheet I am continuing to generate, still trying to figure out why the one Cabin Still was so high. There was obviously more lead in the decanter itself but it is from the same manufacturer as the rest of the SW decanters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelturtle1 Posted January 2, 2014 Author Share Posted January 2, 2014 I have 3 more samples in route so I will make the change when I add thoseSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sailor22 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Great work everyone. Thanks for the yeoman's effort Michael and thanks for all the contributing thoughts everyone else. While the lead content of any liquid is measurable the safe levels for ingestion - both continual and occasional - are harder to pin down. Before passing on that rare sip of dusty juice perhaps we should note that the same could be said for alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelturtle1 Posted January 2, 2014 Author Share Posted January 2, 2014 Just as an FYI, I have a few more samples being sent to me and have hopes to analyze them on Friday the 10th of January. If anyone has anything they would like to have analyzed it would be helpful to have them in the lab by then. As I am treating this as "research" the powers that be at my lab have allowed me to do the testing free of monetary charge, the only "fee" is a bit of extra sample to "test". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meruck Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The finale, to start lets keep in mind the drinking water limit for lead is 15 ppb. I think that is a fair comparison in a way as you are consuming it in the same way but not nearly consuming as much.Exactly, I dont see how anyone can drink that much water. I have heard rummors but I dont believe it. Besides, do you know what fish do int that stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelturtle1 Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-cgCQPVNm4RVnpkYVhaRklFM2c/editupdated list with the new samples I received added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinenjo Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Thanks for testing the samples, Mike.Michters is on pour tonight!The Old Crow probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelturtle1 Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Thanks for testing the samples, Mike.Michters is on pour tonight!The Old Crow probably not.The Michters was my first pour tonight!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauiSon Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 This is really great information. I just wish a few more recent samples (and old samples in glass) were added so we can gauge the differences. So far, it looks like only a few real stinkers in the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighInTheMtns Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Thanks for testing the samples, Mike.Michters is on pour tonight!The Old Crow probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinenjo Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 1955 Old Crow? Lead poisoning be damned.It is very good whiskey. I think I blew through half of the contents when I first acquired it. On a side note, the Royal Doulton decanter it came in fetched around $90 as an empty on eBay. The filled decanter itself cost about $130 at an estate sale 6 years ago. Nice price for pleasurable lead poisoning. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vadertime Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Would old school glass bottles have some risk as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smknjoe Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 As far as I know if you add lead to glass the product is considered "crystal". I don't know that lead was regularly added during the production of standard daily glassware or containers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts