DaveOfAtl Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) Just saw on Twitter where Corsair, Few, Mississippi River Distillery, and Journeyman Distillery announced a collaboration "bourbon." Link: http://mrdistilling.com/blog/?p=1026 The press release notes that each distillery contributed bourbon to the mix except Corsair who contributed bourbon and smoked wheat whiskey. I was under the impression that adding a different type of whiskey would make this a blend, but it is labeled as "bourbon." When I asked about this via Twitter, Corsair said "smoked wheat can be used in bourbon as long as it remains at least 51% corn!" They appear to be saying that as long as the entire mixture remains 51% corn, it can still be called bourbon. (I don't think he is saying Corsair added wheated bourbon) Am I off on this? Edited April 2, 2014 by DaveOfAtl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyOldKyDram Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yeah I'm thinking that they're full of ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravensfire Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Are we reading different rules than what the TTB uses? That 70 proof root beer flavored whiskey being another WTF example.Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callmeox Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Should be a blend of straights if there is straight wheat and straight bourbon in the mix from each, but the Corsair explanation sounds like bunk to me. The bourbon definition is pretty straightforward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Pasture Patties! The 51% corn requirement is for the mash, not a percentage in some eventual blend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I like Corsair but they're wrong for the reasons mentioned above. This kind of stuff didn't happen when Kickert worked there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TunnelTiger Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Well it's obvious that the micros have discovered that there is no oversight when it comes to labels and also no obvious penalties. I look for this to become more prevalent and us true believers need to be forever on guard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yes, vigilance is our shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyd Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Well said TT and Squire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callmeox Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Who is going to fill out the TTB complaint form?This is no different than Forgiven which most likely contained over 51% corn between the bourbon and rye components yet the class/type is whiskey and not bourbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveOfAtl Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 Who is going to fill out the TTB complaint form?This is no different than Forgiven which most likely contained over 51% corn between the bourbon and rye components yet the class/type is whiskey and not bourbon.Exactly, they just wanted to avoid using "blend" and knew TTB was unlikely to call them out. Very blatant. What's more, the product actually sounds more interesting to me when the existence of smoked wheat whiskey is highlighted. I'm not interested in overpriced craft whiskey unless it has something unique about it that the big distilleries don't offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Santana Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 On top of all that - "Four Kings"? Isn't that elevating the stature of Few, Corsair, Journeyman's and Miss. River a bit above their current ranking in bourbon royalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 It's because "The World's Finest Bourbon" was already taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Am I off on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyOldKyDram Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 If it has wheat whiskey in it then it is not a bourbon. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smknjoe Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I will say, though, that you are off on expecting a bourbon to be the final recipe pre-barrel. I expect you've had a healthy number of bourbons cross your lips that were high-corn bourbons mixed post-decant with new-oak aged rye or new-oak aged wheat whiskey. It's not uncommon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyOldKyDram Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 See FORGIVEN. Why wouldn't they have labeled it bourbon if they could? May not still be sitting on the shelves. Like this super limited product hopefully will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TunnelTiger Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I took it to mean that it was a wheater bourbon, not a wheat whiskey. Maybe I misread but I've read it twice now. I do like the fact that our thread had a response from one of the responsible parties.It's always nice to get a response from a producer even if we don't agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyOldKyDram Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Pretty clearly says wheat whiskey on a couple of places. Bourbon ain't that hard to spell.Where's that TTB complaint form, Scott? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Thank you Andrew for taking the time to post. I understood the TTB was vetting formulas and such before label approval and that certainly is a positive development.Did you mean to say the wheat whisky is in fact a wheat recipe Bourbon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callmeox Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Hey Dave, Corsair Andrew here.The barrels of the Four Kings collab that were decanted on Monday were all filled with the same four grain bourbon. The bottled stuff is, per the BAM, TTB regs, and tradition, a bourbon. Weird thanks to the smoke, but labeled truthfully and properly.As a point of interest there are some weird rules at play outside of your worry. The Four Kings stuff cannot be labeled a "straight" bourbon regardless of age because the production happened in multiple states. It cannot be a "blended" bourbon - which I would prefer - because a blended bourbon is a blend of straight bourbons, not just bourbons. At least, so reads the BAM and so states the TTB.Thanks for chiming in here, we appreciate the input. I have some comments and a few questions for you.The reason that it can't be labeled as a straight bourbon is that there's a non-bourbon component whiskey. It also can't be a blend of straight whiskies as they all need to be of the same type (though this wasn't your claim).I will say, though, that you are off on expecting a bourbon to be the final recipe pre-barrel. I expect you've had a healthy number of bourbons cross your lips that were high-corn bourbons mixed post-decant with new-oak aged rye or new-oak aged wheat whiskey. It's not uncommon. If it is common, let us in on the secret. Which distilleries release a product under a bourbon label that contains straight wheat or straight rye? That's something that would be of great interest in the enthusiast community.I do respect holding distillers to account for deceptive practices. In this instance, I would suggest you think again about who is involved with this collab. Three of the four distilleries involved sit on the ACDA Ethics committee, which is tasked with helping the craft industry cope with deceptive and poorly labeled products. All the distilleries involved have been on the forefront of being open about process and product, pushing boundaries, and setting examples to counter those entities I think we all can agree are not on the level.More practically, there's less than a thousand bottles of this whiskey, and it would sell out with any class and type label at twice the price it will be on shelves. There is no economic or marketing point to mislabeling the juice. This is a product done for fun and mutual respect, which I think is worthy of support.The intentions are great, but what enthusiasts want is accuracy. Getting jammed up by NDP's is one thing, but it's really not something that I expected from micros.So, to be clear, are you saying that you can mix any of your other whiskies with distillate from a bourbon mash and, as long as you only put a little in, you can still call it bourbon and not bourbon with xxxxxxx like Red Stag and the others?So, 85% high corn bourbon and 15% quinoa whiskey = bourbon?85% high corn bourbon and 15% smoked straight wheat = bourbon?85% high corn bourbon and 15% ryemageddon = bourbon?I've understood the use of the term "four grain" in bourbon parlance as either a bourbon mash with two flavor grains or a marriage of a wheated bourbon and a rye bourbon. You're using the term to describe a bourbon mash (of what I assume is ryed) combined with a straight wheat whiskey to attain the 4 grains. Is this correct? I still believe that the product is mislabeled as a bourbon and I hope the TTB can address it, regardless of the number of bottles in the run. Honestly, I find the "it's just a small run, regardless" attitude to be dangerous. More water in my bourbon is not what I'm looking for, and watering down the bourbon class type can only lead to more strangeness down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil T Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Hey Dave, Corsair Andrew here.I will say, though, that you are off on expecting a bourbon to be the final recipe pre-barrel. I expect you've had a healthy number of bourbons cross your lips that were high-corn bourbons mixed post-decant with new-oak aged rye or new-oak aged wheat whiskey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyOldKyDram Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 It means somebody needs to start dropping dimes, or else they're full of beans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) Andrew, I appreciate your response, and you know I have nothing but respect for your operation (in spite of my snark), but I too am confused by the assertion that adding "new oak" rye or wheat to bourbons before bottling is a common practice. This is the first I have ever heard of this and if it's true, that's quite a bombshell to drop. Edited April 2, 2014 by Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantum Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I'm just going to sit back and enjoy a nice Knob Creek Smoked Maple Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey (with natural flavors) old fashioned.Maybe "enjoy" is a bit too strong, but it's not terrible with bacon and waffles for dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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